What Causes Lightning?

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CharmQuark
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What Causes Lightning?

Post by CharmQuark » Thu May 15, 2014 3:54 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05 ... 28587.html

Seen this article today and would love to know what other people think. Danny has said surely if it had something to do with particles coming off the sun then at a solar minimum then we wold see a big reduction in lightning strikes? but I think somewhere in there is says that it goes for all charged particles hitting the earth?

If it does turn out to be correct then that's cool indeed, But I have to admit I have heard nothing like this before.

Thoughts please.

CQ
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Fri May 23, 2014 8:51 pm

Hi Charms,

I think it's bollocks. The particles from the sun are there all the time, so it's not them who are triggering it but the change in weather. It's like a car that runs into a brick wall and saying that it's the wall that triggered the crash.

btw lightning happens usually during the night/evening when it's getting dark when the sun is gone or faded, and it only takes 9 minutes or so for those particles to reach earth thus ... that's what I'm thinking.

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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by CharmQuark » Sat May 24, 2014 11:26 am

Chelle!

I am thinking the same, I mean it really doesn't make any sense at all. But you know what these people are like when they get something into their heads. People these days are just getting worse. :wtf:
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by DCWhitworth » Mon May 26, 2014 9:42 am

Until I read the article I thought the same, but now I think the idea is plausible. Lightning isn't a very well understood phenomenon.

As far as I understand the article isn't saying that the particles cause the storms. the storms occur naturally and the manner in which they generate the charge in the clouds is broadly understood. What is not so well understood is what triggers the charge to then move from the clouds to the ground. The idea that perhaps this is triggered by the path of an incoming particle seems interesting.

Of course it's currently only a theory based on statistical observations as far as I can tell.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Tue May 27, 2014 4:27 pm

True DC and as often with journalism the tittle is pumped up, as it says:

What Causes Lightning? Scientists Claim Solar Particles Are The Trigger

... further in the article they say:

"Instead what we actually saw was a marked increase in lightning. It turns out these solar winds bring with them a slightly lower energy population of particle - and these are enhancing the lighting rate."

Bottom line is that solar wind seems to influence lightning a little, the 'strange' thing is that it influences in a different way than first expected.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:54 pm

Hi Charms & co.

Here's a cool Vines video that was in the news today of lightning seen from space:

https://vine.co/v/MFzIvZBq6M7

cheers,

m.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by CharmQuark » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:34 am

Hiya Chelle!!!

Good to see you are still around lol.

I seen this video yesterday, looks great :D
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:41 pm

Sure, I'm still hanging around : )

Those images of the lightning seen from space just show us how precious our tiny planet is, it would be a pity if the LHC blew it to pieces : P

Cheers,

m.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by Conundrum » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:37 am

Its more likely that aliens will show up and confiscate all our nuclear weapons en masse by about a factor of 100,000 than anything the LHC doing affecting anything other than a small area.
The magnet anomaly shows exactly what happens when it overloads, it can't run away like a nuclear reactor so no worries there.

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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:03 am

Conundrum wrote:Its more likely that aliens will show up and confiscate all our nuclear weapons en masse by about a factor of 100,000 than anything the LHC doing affecting anything other than a small area.
Well dropping a sigaret in the woods during summer affects also only an small area ... 1st.


The magnet anomaly shows exactly what happens when it overloads, it can't run away like a nuclear reactor so no worries there.
Sure, although I'm curious if the beam would be deflected out of the ring and shoot upwards that the beam could cause for lethal radiation above ground, the facility is 175 m underground ... how far would the beam get?
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by DCWhitworth » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:22 am

The magnet anomaly shows exactly what happens when it overloads, it can't run away like a nuclear reactor so no worries there.
Sure, although I'm curious if the beam would be deflected out of the ring and shoot upwards that the beam could cause for lethal radiation above ground, the facility is 175 m underground ... how far would the beam get?[/quote]

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't make it above ground. Also I think the danger from the beams is from energy rather than radiation.

Firing the beam upwards into the ground above the LHC would be just like it hitting the beam dump. It's not only well below ground but any deflection would be at a fairly shallow angle given the speed the beam is moving at. I can't see that you could contrive a scenario where the beam didn't have to travel through a minimum of a kilometre of rock before reaching the surface. So, no danger there I think.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by Tau 2 » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:29 pm

DCWhitworth wrote:
if the beam would be deflected out of the ring
and how exactly would you "deflect" the beam out of the ring? If you don't confine it with anything as big as the magnets in the ring, it goes straight. Shoot a tiny hole in the mountain and vanish. Hardly interesting.

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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:21 pm

DCWhitworth wrote:Firing the beam upwards into the ground above the LHC would be just like it hitting the beam dump. It's not only well below ground but any deflection would be at a fairly shallow angle given the speed the beam is moving at. I can't see that you could contrive a scenario where the beam didn't have to travel through a minimum of a kilometre of rock before reaching the surface. So, no danger there I think.
True, for photons a 'simple' mirror could deflect the beam 'easily' in any direction, if there's a screw loose so to speak. Makes me wonder if a strong magnet can flick the beam in a sharp angle.

Non the less it is a lot of energy that goes into the beam dump:

"The most challenging beam dump design to date is that of the Large Hadron Collider. Each of the two beam dumps, in case, for instance, of a dipole magnet quench, must be able to dissipate 362 MJ of beam energy in the 90 μs circulation time, which equates to a power of 4 TW."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_dump

Can imagine it getting red hot, would be cool to have some images of that, might be this:
https://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.c ... m-dump.htm

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Tau 2 wrote:If the planet is going to be destroyed, it will be by religious extremists: I don't care what religion.
It's funny how some science- and religious fans like to set up the battle of religion vs. science, kind of Beatles vs. the Rolling Stones, ... you are one of them if you are not with us. :doh:
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by Tau 2 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:58 am

chelle wrote:Makes me wonder if a strong magnet can flick the beam in a sharp angle.
That question is easy to answer.
Some of the strongest magnets available are already down there in the tunnel, and the angle they deflect the beam about 5 microradians, or 3 minutes of arc, if you prefer.
Those 35 tons magnets, each 14.3 meters long, can only move the beam a few centimeters.
Picture: http://www.lhc-closer.es/1/4/6/0
And in case you want to "reflect" the beam like a mirror does, the result is a hole in whatever you put in front of the beam.

BTW about the extremists: I am not against them, I am just afraid.
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Re: What Causes Lightning?

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:11 pm

Tau 2 wrote:BTW about the extremists: I am not against them, I am just afraid.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
- Yoda

hihi :mrgreen:
Tau 2 wrote:And in case you want to "reflect" the beam like a mirror does, the result is a hole in whatever you put in front of the beam.
Back to business, and I'm finally reaching the point of understanding what its all about, so here's my follow up question:

You say that it will blow a hole through whatever ... this surely is because of the high kinetic energy.

Now some photons go through walls, such as the low radio waves, and on the other end of the spectrum X-rays also shoot through walls (genre LHC).

In between these two extremes is visible light, that is bounced back or absorbed by walls, and here we have the phenomenon of the double-slit experiment where an interference pattern shows; whereby a particle flying through one slit can sense the other slit that is maybe 1 millimeter away.

Now my question is, at what point do these photons become 'ghost-like' and do they no longer sense the structure of the wall, what is the relation between Wall - Slit - Particle?

The same question regarding Protons, at what energy will they fly through a wall or will they be bounced back? It is said that protons should also be able to create interference patterns, so how far would they be able to sense the other split, what's the formula for that?
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