Creating "Sparks"

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
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chelle
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:22 am

Off topic a bit... Well maybe not... Well kinda a side note..
This guy knows sparks..
WARNING.. This site will eat up hours of browsing..
http://tesladownunder.com/
That's a great link, I always thought that Nobody was wilder than the Wildboyz, boy was I wrong, that's shocking :shock:

thx!

btw your right about the "warning" :)
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Xymox
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:52 am

I love that guy...

I exchanged email with him years ago. He is really cool. He is a dad... Imagine his kids must be pretty proud of their dad..

Im sorry I have not had time to focus on your questions. I have a pressing project to make the portal more understandable for visitors and that has really occupied my time. I will return to your questions...

I posted in some other forums for smart guys to come help, but they seem to only like their forums ? :(

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chelle
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:22 pm

He is really cool. He is a dad... Imagine his kids must be pretty proud of their dad..
I can imagine the whole family sitting at the table with their hair standing straight up because of all the electricity in the air.
Im sorry I have not had time to focus on your questions. I have a pressing project to make the portal more understandable for visitors and that has really occupied my time.
It's all good, it gives me also some time to catch up :)
I will return to your questions... I posted in some other forums for smart guys to come help, but they seem to only like their forums ?
I don't think anyone can tell, unless you know what's in the box and how it works, like Danny said:
Energy is also great at being confusing! There's so many definitions and ways ...
Some more specific questions:

The LHC-safety report says:
The LHC is designed to collide pairs of protons each with energies of 7 TeV (somewhat more than 7000 times the rest mass-energy of the proton), and pairs of lead nuclei each with energies of about 2.8 TeV per proton or neutron (nucleon).
While in the book I have from Leon Lederman he says:
Not the speed sharpens the knife... It's about the energy. A proton with 99% the speed of light has an energy of about 7 GeV, while a proton of 99,95% has 30 GeV, and 99,999% has 200 GeV (Fermilab, 1972)
These numbers are quite differently, btw:
1 eV = 10^-9
1 GeV = 10^-16
1 TeV = 10^-20


and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray
Cosmic rays can have energies of over 10^20 eV, far higher than the 10^12 to 10^13 eV that man-made particle accelerators can produce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high ... cosmic_ray
the OMG particle energy estimated to be approximately 3 × 10^20 eV. It was most probably a proton with a speed very close to the speed of light. The energy of most cosmic rays is between 10^7 eV and 10^10 eV.
The scheme of things:
Cosmic rays: 10^7 eV to 10^10 eV
Man-made: 10^12 to 10^13 eV
OMG Cosmic rays: 3 x 10^20 eV

And, "The electron volt is not an SI unit and its value must be obtained experimentally."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_volt

btw the safety raport says:
Though considerably higher than the energies of previous accelerators, these energies are still far below those of the highest-energy cosmic-ray collisions that are observed regularly on Earth.
and in the upper right corner of the wiki-omg-particle-page:
Unsolved problems in physics: Why is it that some cosmic rays appear to possess energies that are theoretically too high?
:roll:
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chelle
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:41 pm

Plubp, a side of a frog jumping into the pool, still no answers.

btw, I had some numbers not properly explained on my previous post. The table is related to the energy needed to measure the energy of:

1 eV = 1 electron volt -> Atom: 10^-9 m
1 GeV = 10^9 (giga) -> Proton: 10^-16 m
10 TeV = 10x10^12 (tera) -> Higgs? 10^-20 m

...

I guess I can finalize my own "Safety Report" and say:

- The analogy of an LHC-particle-beam with a single cosmic-ray-particle falling onto earth, or on any other object in space, is not correct.

- It is not excluded that collisions of particles and vaporization of sub-atomic-elements could create an unstable form of matter / energy, that could instigate an event impossible to predict.

Conclusion: There ain't no rest for the Wicked
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Stephen » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:17 pm

According to LSAG the LHC operates at an energy level equivalent to 10^17

"3x10^22 cosmic rays with energies of 10^17 eV or more, equal to or greater than the LHC energy, have struck the Earth’s surface since its formation".

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:26 pm

There you go.

And nice video. Naruto and Ozzy !

Again, im sorry to have not posted more on your thread. You exceeded my ability to properly respond with perfect accuracy. However be patient. We are gaining more and more people who CAN address your questions.

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:22 pm

"3x10^22 cosmic rays with energies of 10^17 eV or more, equal to or greater than the LHC energy, have struck the Earth’s surface since its formation".
This is not correct it refers to the image, and the text below it says:
Every cosmic ray with an energy shown in this plot, namely above 1017 eV, liberates in its collision with the atmosphere more energy in its centre-of- mass frame than does a proton-proton collision at the LHC.
As discussed before, once they hit the atmosphere, they cascade down to earth and create showers of smaller particles.

And to summarize:

The LHC collides two beams of protons of 7x10^12 eV per beam. (7 TeV)
The LHC produces 10^9 proton-proton collisions per second per test session.

These are Beams vs. Single cosmic ray particles
An equivalent energy in the centre of mass would be obtained in the collision of a cosmic-ray proton with Earth if its energy reaches 10^17 eV .
Now some other questions; which role does gravity and the rotation of the earth, play on the attraction of these cosmic rays. Do they just come flying in, do they increase in speed and / or energy when nearing earth's atmosphere?
There you go.

And nice video. Naruto and Ozzy !
And here I go again ^_^

Hell yeah, Ozzy and Naruto what can I say.

btw I have a suggestion regarding the Fermi Paradox we haven't been visited by aliens because each time they reach the point of developing technology to make the leap, they blow up their own planet, (edit) just like we are going to do ;)

Anyhow thx for the feedback.
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by tswsl1989 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:49 pm

Now some other questions; which role does gravity and the rotation of the earth, play on the attraction of these cosmic rays. Do they just come flying in, do they increase in speed and / or energy when nearing earth's atmosphere?
I realise this is an old thread, but I think I can answer this one.

Gravity is by far the weakest of the known forces. Particles forming cosmic rays have very small rest mass, so are virtually unaffected by gravity. The rotation of the Earth has no effect that I can think of.

Obviously an increase in velocity would increase the energy of the cosmic ray, according to the following:
E^2=m_0^2c^4+p^2c^2, where E=Energy, m_0=rest mass, c=speed of light and p=momentum

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:55 am

tswsl1989 wrote:Gravity is by far the weakest of the known forces.
According to general relativity, mass "warps" space-time to create gravitational fields and therefore bend light as a result. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens)
tswsl1989 wrote:Particles forming cosmic rays have very small rest mass, so are virtually unaffected by gravity.
Mass has a relation with gravity if I'm correct :roll:

Anyhow

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Kamiokande- project:
By classifying the neutrino interactions according to the type of neutrino involved (electron-neutrino or muon-neutrino) and counting their relative numbers as a function of the distance from their creation point, we conclude that the muon-neutrinos are "oscillating". Oscillation is the changing back and forth of a neutrino's type as it travels through space or matter. This can occur only if the neutrino possesses mass.
Source: http://neutrino.phys.washington.edu/~su ... lease.html
tswsl1989 wrote:The rotation of the Earth has no effect that I can think of.
You're probably right but is there a relation between the gravity of the earth and it's rotation?
tswsl1989 wrote:Obviously an increase in velocity would increase the energy of the cosmic ray, according to the following:
E^2=m_0^2c^4+p^2c^2, where E=Energy, m_0=rest mass, c=speed of light and p=momentum
There is the Greisen-Zatsepin-Kuzmin limit (GZK limit), a theoretical upper limit on the energy of cosmic rays from distant sources. (source wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greisen–Za ... zmin_limit)

an interesting article about this at: http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/0 ... utoff.html

I know these are just some vague responses, but I guess it might come down to the question; do protons have a weak spot? That when being hit with enough force at the right angle, makes them release all their inbound energy. Thus making them appear as Ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, while they are actually just regular cosmic-ray-particles? And if the LHC might be able to hit this spot, than isn't there the possibility of a chain reaction ... perhaps it's just a fantasy or maybe a real insight ^_^
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by tswsl1989 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:33 pm

Chelle wrote:According to general relativity, mass "warps" space-time to create gravitational fields and therefore bend light as a result. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens)
Yep, true enough
Chelle wrote:
tswsl1989 wrote:Particles forming cosmic rays have very small rest mass, so are virtually unaffected by gravity.
Mass has a relation with gravity if I'm correct :roll:
Contrast "Very small" and "virtually unaffected" with "No" and "None" :)
Yes, there will be an effect, but not one that we could measure (As far as I'm aware)
Chelle wrote:You're probably right but is there a relation between the gravity of the earth and it's rotation?
As far as I'm aware there is no causal relation between the rotation of the Earth and gravity. You do need to take rotation into account when launching things from the Earths surface, but I can't see how that would affect inbound cosmic rays.
Chelle wrote:[snip]Do protons have a weak spot? That when being hit with enough force at the right angle, makes them release all their inbound energy. Thus making them appear as Ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, while they are actually just regular cosmic-ray-particles? And if the LHC might be able to hit this spot, than isn't there the possibility of a chain reaction ... perhaps it's just a fantasy or maybe a real insight ^_^
You can release the mass energy of a proton by combining it with an anti proton. I don't think you can make a proton give up it's energy just by hitting it in the right spot though, it's not a nut! :)

Give protons enough energy and collide them with themselves or with antiprotons, and you can create all manner of other odd particles, which is what the LHC will do (proton-proton collisions though, not antiprotons)

Hope that answers your last post :)

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:01 pm

tswsl1989 wrote:
Chelle wrote:You're probably right but is there a relation between the gravity of the earth and it's rotation?
As far as I'm aware there is no causal relation between the rotation of the Earth and gravity. You do need to take rotation into account when launching things from the Earths surface, but I can't see how that would affect inbound cosmic rays.
We do not know how gravity works, as of Newton scientist haven't looked at the causes more at the actual measurement of the forces. And simply put; a bigger/heavier object has more gravity pull towards a smaller one, and as far as I know all these objects in space are spinning ...

Image
source wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_l ... ravitation

Anyhow it isn't very relevant to the discussion.

tswsl1989 wrote:
Chelle wrote:[snip]Do protons have a weak spot? That when being hit with enough force at the right angle, makes them release all their inbound energy. Thus making them appear as Ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, while they are actually just regular cosmic-ray-particles? And if the LHC might be able to hit this spot, than isn't there the possibility of a chain reaction ... perhaps it's just a fantasy or maybe a real insight ^_^
You can release the mass energy of a proton by combining it with an anti proton. I don't think you can make a proton give up it's energy just by hitting it in the right spot though, it's not a nut! :)
The mechanism that makes a proton "work" has an energy of it's self, it might be like a nut, particle physicists like to call themselves Nutcrackers, no ;)

check this out:
For things made up of many parts, like a nucleus, planet, or star, the relativistic mass is the sum of the relativistic masses (or energies) of the parts, because energies are additive in closed systems. This is not true in systems which are open, however, if energy is subtracted. For example, if a system is bound by attractive forces and the work they do in attraction is removed from the system, mass will be lost. Such work is a form of energy which itself has mass, and thus mass is removed from the system, as it is bound. For example, the mass of an atomic nucleus is less than the total mass of the protons and neutrons that make it up, but this is only true after the energy (work) of binding has been removed in the form of a gamma ray (which in this system, carries away the mass of binding). This mass decrease is also equivalent to the energy required to break up the nucleus into individual protons and neutrons (in this case, work and mass would need to be supplied).
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence
tswsl1989 wrote:Give protons enough energy and collide them with themselves or with antiprotons, and you can create all manner of other odd particles, which is what the LHC will do (proton-proton collisions though, not antiprotons)
You said it yourself "odd particles" and what else?
tswsl1989 wrote:Hope that answers your last post :)
Mh, not really, the basic question, is more or less the same as any scientist on this project, what's inside the box that makes it tick, are there any surprises.
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Stephen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:23 pm

Why do you think energy released from protons would cause a chain reaction?

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:03 pm

Stephen wrote:Why do you think energy released from protons would cause a chain reaction?
Nature has proven us over and over again that cumulations of energy have a significant force, and once the energy composition is broken that there is an outbreak, a chain reaction or a simple vaporization releasing the energy. In the case of a candle this vaporization process provides the system of the speeding process of one composition into an other, giving us heat and light.
For me it seems logical that if your using brutal force to break a very tiny structure to pieces, that you eventually reach a point where you create a situation where a new unknown chemical/compositional reaction would happen. I guess you could even predict mathematically when there is a new breakthrough, like predicting at what time of a game it's most likely that a goal is scored.

btw for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JdWlSF195Y
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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Stephen » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:12 pm

But wouldn't we have seen this new chemical reaction in cosmic rays? There could possibly be new surprises (like the fireball created at RHIC), but a chain reaction which is capable of ruining a whole planet would have probably been visible.

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Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:10 pm

Stephen wrote:But wouldn't we have seen this new chemical reaction in cosmic rays? There could possibly be new surprises (like the fireball created at RHIC), but a chain reaction which is capable of ruining a whole planet would have probably been visible.
That reaction might be what I referred to the difference between a regular cosmic ray and an Ultra-high-omg-cosmic-ray particle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high ... cosmic_ray
The first observation of a cosmic ray with an energy exceeding 1020 electronvolts was made in 1962.
Cosmic rays with even higher energies have since been observed. Among them was the Oh-My-God particle. Its observation was a shock to astrophysicists, who estimated its energy to be approximately 3 × 1020 electronvolts (50 joules)—in other words, a subatomic particle with macroscopic kinetic energy equal to that of a baseball (142 g or 5 ounces) traveling at 96 km/h (60 mph).
and in the upper right corner of that page:
Unsolved problems in physics: Why is it that some cosmic rays appear to possess energies that are theoretically too high?
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