Creating "Sparks"

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
User avatar
Xymox
Site Admin
Posts: 1022
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Phoenix, Az USA
Contact:

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:41 am

I have pleaded for help for smarter minds then mine to help me answer...

Hang in there..

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:02 pm

No worries Xymox, lookin' forward for any reply, it's great to get some response to the questions I got ...

btw I couldn't find a pdf of the article in the book but I guess it's in line with this one:

Source (see "Full Text"): http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0004-637X/472/1/245
the accumulated radiation for an ensemble of electrons with an energy power-law index x that spiral about a uniform magnetic field with an isotropic distribution of pitch angles.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Danny252
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Danny252 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:46 pm

Maybe I can try and answer a few:

--

Gamma rays are just (high energy) photons. To the best of my knowledge, you're not going to affect a photon with a magnetic field - magnetic fields only affect charged particles and other magnets.

Alpha particles (Helium ions with no electrons) would be deflected as they have a 2+ charge (2 protons but no electrons). Beta particles would also be - Beta- are electrons, hence being 1-, and Beta+ are positrons/antielectrons, being 1+.

--

Particles going fast:

As you approach the speed of light, the mass of whatever it is you're accelerating increases exponentially (E=mc^2). To accelerate a heavier mass, you need more energy. By extrapolating the graph, you reach infinite mass at the speed of light. To reach this, you need infinite energy - so stuff gets heavier as it gets faster, and harder to accelerate, and you break quite a lot of regular physics if you get infinite energy.

However, it does mean something going 99.99~% of c does have a LOT of energy - smash 2 things together and you do a good job of breaking them apart! And when you start breaking things apart, you make all kinds of funky particles.

The reason a photon can go this fast is due to the fact it is massless - no matter how much you multiply 0, you still stay at 0 mass.

--

Solar Gas and Ignition - Not so sure about the sun producing a "gas", but it does produce a pile of charged particles and other stuff (as well as a magnetic field) extending around the solar system - "solar wind". This eventually meets the interstellar wind, and keeps some of that out. We're a big ship sailing through the ocean of interstellar wind - pushing it out of our way as we go.

Wikipedia actually has a few nice diagrams: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliopause#Heliopause

--

Stars staying apart because of ignition - not sure where that came from... If stuff near stars were to ignite, why is the planet here? Stuff can't burn in the conventional sense in space very well - not enough oxygen. And you need to squeeze stuff a LOT to cause fusion - it takes a ball the size of the Sun to do it, whilst Jupiter sits around calmy!

--

Staying safe from cosmic rays - combination of the earth/sun's magnetic fields deflecting charged stuff, and it hitting stuff up in the atmosphere. Sure, some of it makes it down - in fact, most of it. Hell, I'm quite sure most of it wanders through and goes out the other end! Isn't there some large tank of water underground somewhere looking for some cosmic particle interactions, which would require said particles to wander down?

--

Hope I haven't offended anyone, or made any really stupid mistakes. Also note I am a lowly A Level student, and still don't understand a pile of stuff myself!

User avatar
Xymox
Site Admin
Posts: 1022
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Phoenix, Az USA
Contact:

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:31 am

Offend anyone ?? Nooooo.... Not at all.. Any help is good help...

User avatar
chriwi
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19 pm
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Contact:

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chriwi » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:18 am

Regarding the "most goes through" and some is blocked by magnetism, solarwind and athmosphere:
Whath goes through are minly Neutrinos and other strange particles which barely interact with normal matter and esspecially our body, so it doesn't affect us. That is also what they are searching with theese underground Watertanks (or is it anotehr chemical used there?).
The other rays and particles which would likely interact with the atoms of our body will be almost all be blockt by magnetism, solarwind and the earths athmosphere so that it cannot harm us.
Particles and rays which interact with the matter of our body often makes minor changes to the atoms and molecules in our body, if in this way changes in our DNS occre cancer might be the result.
.
bye

chriwi

Danny252
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Danny252 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:42 pm

Having thought on it a bit more (and now slightly less tired), you're right on cosmic rays. I suppose if most went through without interacting at all, the ozone layer would be a bit defunct!

From what I remember it said water - but it could have been a watered down article for the public, I guess.

The main cause of DNA/Cell damage is due to atoms/molecules in the body becoming ionised by various interactions. These then, of course, go and react elsewhere in ways they shouldn't - which can of course cause cells to reproduce in ways they shouldn't (i.e. cancer).

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:49 pm

Hi Danny, thx for you reply.
Gamma rays are just (high energy) photons. To the best of my knowledge, you're not going to affect a photon with a magnetic field - magnetic fields only affect charged particles and other magnets.
Primary Cosmic Rays are protons, with a +1 electric charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton

There are Primary Cosmic Rays (protons with a lot of kinetic energy) that change in to Secondary Cosmic Rays (muons) after an "Air Shower" (see pic.)
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray

Image

The reason a photon can go this fast is due to the fact it is massless - no matter how much you multiply 0, you still stay at 0 mass.
Or it is still heavier than "dark-matter" mass below 0?
Stars staying apart because of ignition - not sure where that came from...
I was referring here to Supernova's clearing everything in the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova
Staying safe from cosmic rays - combination of the earth/sun's magnetic fields deflecting charged stuff, and it hitting stuff up in the atmosphere. Sure, some of it makes it down - in fact, most of it. Hell, I'm quite sure most of it wanders through and goes out the other end! Isn't there some large tank of water underground somewhere looking for some cosmic particle interactions, which would require said particles to wander down?
Like "chriwi" said, it are "Ghostly" neutrinos that just keep on going right trough the Earth.

This is the link to the tank thing:
http://www.augeraccess.net/Pierre_Auger_Observatory.htm

So still the question are it only "ghostly" neutrinos that reach and go through earth? Although this fact isn't an issue because the original high charged proton cosmic rays also hit the moon, only the surface (?)

The real question would be are those ray's made out of single particles and are they comparable with the fresh baked proton-beams? It isn't necessarily the amount of energy but rather the form that makes a difference; think of a high Current (Ampère) vs a high amount of Force (Voltage) vs Resistance (Ohm), three different shapes of energy.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Danny252
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Danny252 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:06 pm

I've seen a similar diagram to that one, with all the various particles labelled (with some mountain in the background?). That is one of the best explanations I've seen. I need to find my old physics teacher and ask her where she found it...

Thanks for the tank link. Some more reading material for tonight!

I don't know if it's just neutrinos that get through. Theoretically, I think, anything has a chance of getting through without interacting - remember most of the world is empty space between nuclei, electrons and whatnot!

I think "ray" is a bit of a misnomer (someone mentioned that earlier) - it's really a constant rain of various particles flying around it seems. I think I got a bit confused myself by "ray" - I was thinking of cosmic background radiation, which is where the gamma rays/photons are included.

The LHC's proton beams are lots and lots of protons bunched together into one small area going fast, whereas cosmic rays are (presumably) more random and fly in just about any direction. Maybe think of a hose nozzle - it can either be a tight beam (LHC), or a spray (Cosmic).

As for current/voltage/resistance - Power, the rate of energy transfer, is determined by current ("how fast the electrons are flowing") and voltage ("how hard they're being pushed"), which are related to resistance. They aren't really forms of energy - together they do decide how much energy is transferred and at what rate. But that's a bit offtopic!

User avatar
Xymox
Site Admin
Posts: 1022
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Phoenix, Az USA
Contact:

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:17 pm

This is a fun thread. Really interesting..

whoa.... Cosmic rain... Cool... Way better way to think of it...

i suppose we actually have cosmic weather as well. Im sure the rate of rain varies.

I suppose its a form of space weather.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:27 pm

Theoretically, I think, anything has a chance of getting through without interacting - remember most of the world is empty space between nuclei, electrons and whatnot!
The whatnot would be space full of Higgs bosons, interacting at different levels with different particles.
check this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bw7nUr9K68
Maybe think of a hose nozzle - it can either be a tight beam (LHC), or a spray (Cosmic).
This is the comparison I'm wondering about, is it fair of the LHC to use cosmic-rays as an equal for their beams?
As for current/voltage/resistance … They aren't really forms of energy - together they do decide how much energy is transferred and at what rate.
In short steps:

• proton = particle with electric charge +1
• electric charge = coulomb
• coulomb = electric charge transported in 1 second by 1 ampere
• ampere = electric charge passing a point per time

• electron volt (TEV) = energy gained by electron accelerated through volt
• volt = electromotive force

• resistance = opposition to electric current
• electric current = ampere

These are 3 real forms of energy.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:55 pm

btw check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Po35g23fYI
and http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 1419758473

Thes guys use a 5 million electron volt (MeV) particle accelerator to inject huge numbers of electrons deep inside charged blocks of acryl and decharge them with a metal pin to create lightning flahses. The a reflection of the flashes "sparks" is captured within the transparent plastic.

I mailed them with a few questions:

- Doesn't the material never explodes and shatters, or goes on fire?

Not yet. We have been concerned about energy density in large figures, since the stored electrostatic energy can be about 1 kilojoule per square foot. The discharge is far too quick (100's of nanoseconds) to ignite the specimen.

... or is it a matter of fine-tuning the voltage regarding the material u use?

Fine tuning is necessary for thickness, area, material, manufacturing blend, desired discharge density, etc., etc...

- Why not glass, or would it burst or does it need more energy?

Glass tends to get very dark during irradiation, hiding any figure inside. Also, internal fracturing can lead to sudden/unexpected shattering of the material at the time of Lichtenberg Figure formation or even weeks (or months) later. Because of the risk to us and our customers, we do not make or offer glass Lichtenberg Figures. Besides, acrylic is even optically clearer than glass... :^)

- Could you make "fulgurites" if you used blocks of compressed sand?
No - at least not using the electron injection technique. Artificial fulgurites can be made using a high voltage/high current arc. Such as:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23493618@N08/2383185103/

Here is a link to there site:
http://205.243.100.155/frames/lichtenbergs.html
http://www.capturedlightning.com

Image

I thought it might be cool for this topic,

cheers,

chelle
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Danny252
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Danny252 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:08 pm

Energy is something that is transferred when work is done.

Work is making something happen - pushing a cart, throwing an apple.

It involves turning energy from one form (such as electric

If a circuit powers a motor, work is done.

Because work is done, energy is used.

For charges to pass through something with resistance, work must be done.

If more charges are moving through per unit time (higher current), more work is being done.

If the charges are moving "faster" (higher voltage), more work is being done.

If the resistance is higher, more work is being done to push the same amount of charges at the same "speed".

Any time more work is done, more energy is transferred.

However, something that affects the amount of work being done (and therefore how much energy is transferred) is not a type of energy itself.

--

Only reason I split that up is because energy is a horrible concept, and it's horrible to define, and it confuses everyone I know - everyone in my physics class would agree! (or more likely, disagree - we've argued about it. A lot.)

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by chelle » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:25 pm

Only reason I split that up is because energy is a horrible concept, and it's horrible to define, and it confuses everyone I know - everyone in my physics class would agree! (or more likely, disagree - we've argued about it. A lot.)
Einstein proved with E=mc^2 that mass is energy, so everything is energy; a current, a resistor, or pressure it is all energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Danny252
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Danny252 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:57 pm

Energy is also great at being confusing! There's so many definitions and ways to talk about it...

User avatar
Xymox
Site Admin
Posts: 1022
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:55 pm
Location: Phoenix, Az USA
Contact:

Re: Creating "Sparks"

Post by Xymox » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:57 pm

Off topic a bit... Well maybe not... Well kinda a side note..

This guy knows sparks..

WARNING.. This site will eat up hours of browsing..

http://tesladownunder.com/

Image

Post Reply