The CERN safety study

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 06, 2010 5:56 pm

Shadowdraxx wrote:same goes for the moon, aye yeah indeed 4.4 billion years still standing without a thin layer of air molecules to protect it, but all the websites on cosmic ray interactions clearly state that 100% of cosmic rays break down in.. oh wait erm, OH NO the moon OMFG, its sure in big danger isn't it!
True, but than again the moon is already a burned-up to dust reduced place. Let's say the impact of a high-energetic particle not only causes sputtering but also a sub-atomic chain-reaction. On the moon it will be difficult to keep such an autocatalytic event going because most of the energy will be lost into space, and lunar regolith is also a very good insulator. That's why I find TLP's interesting.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Kasuha » Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:02 pm

Chelle wrote:True, but than again the moon is already a burned-up to dust reduced place.
Regolith consists of particles of millions and billions of atoms of various chemical elements present in crystalline latices and molecules held together by usual chemical bonds. I somehow don't see how can this become burned up. And "burning up" on macroscopic scale is pretty insignificant for particle collisions.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:33 pm

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:True, but than again the moon is already a burned-up to dust reduced place.
Regolith consists of particles of millions and billions of atoms of various chemical elements present in crystalline latices and molecules held together by usual chemical bonds. I somehow don't see how can this become burned up. And "burning up" on macroscopic scale is pretty insignificant for particle collisions.
Indeed it is a matter of how to break down the configuration.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:40 pm

Kasuha wrote:Regolith consists of particles of millions and billions of atoms of various chemical elements present in crystalline latices and molecules held together by usual chemical bonds. I somehow don't see how can this become burned up. And "burning up" on macroscopic scale is pretty insignificant for particle collisions.
Check this out:

The airless impact of a meteor carries its full blow directly to the surface, unlike terrestrial meteorites which are slowed and burn up while entering the atmosphere. "It's like a miniature nuclear explosion," Hapke said.

The authors described that weathering in the absence of air or water--known as 'space weathering' -- is not comparable to anything that might be observed on Earth. "The formation of regolith and soil on airless planetary bodies, such as the Moon, Mercury, asteroids, is the result of processes virtually nonexistent on Earth." This weathering is caused by large impacts which pulverize rocks to soil, combined with melting to a glassy state for smaller impacts. When heated vapor recondenses on the rock's surface and surrounding soil, a thin iron- and silica-rich layer is deposited.

On a polished section from the meteorite, what originally struck the scientists as a bit of tarnish turns out to be a new iron-silicide mineral never seen before on Earth.


Image

http://www.astrobio.net/pressrelease/94 ... errestrial

--

If this vaporization of Micro-Meteorites happens, wouldn't a similar event be possible during the impact of high-energetic-particles?
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:59 pm

Chelle wrote:If this vaporization of Micro-Meteorites happens, wouldn't a similar event be possible during the impact of high-energetic-particles?
Well, sure. The highly energetic particle's energy is transformed to heat in the end and that sure can lead to certain amount of vaporization. But at that point it's already no longer about particle collisions. When chemistry happens, quantum physics is (relatively) long over.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:08 pm

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:If this vaporization of Micro-Meteorites happens, wouldn't a similar event be possible during the impact of high-energetic-particles?
Well, sure. The highly energetic particle's energy is transformed to heat in the end and that sure can lead to certain amount of vaporization.
... and on the moon or on top of the atmosphere the energy and vapor can Backscatter into open space, while within our atmosphere such an event would be tampered.
Kasuha wrote:But at that point it's already no longer about particle collisions. When chemistry happens, quantum physics is (relatively) long over.
Nuclear physics or nuclear chemistry is there a difference?
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:23 pm

1/ ALL of the energy is converted to heat in the end and ALL of that heat is released out to space in the form of variable wavelength light and particles escaping from the body's gravitational well. Both on Earth and on moon.

2/ I'm not talking about nuclear chemistry. Evaporating substances are part conventional chemistry which does NOT involve nuclear reactions.

You're just mixing apples and oranges.

User avatar
mrgumby
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:53 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by mrgumby » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:37 am

I don't feel that there is a lot of logic in some of this.
If there are extreme energy collisions happening on the edge of the atmosphere all the time then there are only a limited number of ways of looking at them regarding black holes.

Either no black holes are produced, in which case we are unlikely to produce any at the much lower energy levels of the LHC.
or
Black holes are produced all the time and they evaporate without causing damage.

Either way....where is the problem?

Am I missing something? :think:

User avatar
chriwi
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19 pm
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Contact:

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chriwi » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:20 am

What could be the problem in case blackholes are created at all might be the difference in the momentum of theeses black holes in the reference frame of earth and/or solar gravityfield. In the first case where high energy rays hit atoms stationary in the reference frame of the earth etc. the blackhole or whatever if it is created would have a rather high momentum compared to earths gravityfield and also the surronding atoms. In case of the same bh etc. produced by a headoncollider like the LHC the bh etc. would have a low momentum in the referenceframe of the earth gravityfield and surrounding matter.
In the first case the bh etc. would fly awayand leave the earths gravityfield or would hit other atoms (nuclei) with a high momentum which might result in further reactions which might destroy the bh etc. in secnd case the low momentum bh etc. would stay in the earth gravityfield and also not interact with other atoms in the same way it would when it had a high momentum.
That doesn't necessarily have to make it more dangerous, but it might.
The argument to proove the safty beyyond this consideration is that there are allways objects with a higher gravitiyfield and higher density which would also be strong enough to capture bh etc. created by rays with an energy much higher than LHC-collissions. But thous high gravity objects must by other configurations of matter than our earth like neutronstars etc. , so for me ther is still the slight possibillity of objects being formed by such collissions wich would be dangerous only for ordinary matter or even only for live but would not have any visable effect on other configurations of matter like neutronstars etc. .

All this was already discussed before and I only mention it again to show that the matter is not as simple as stated by mrgumby (sorry).
bye

chriwi

User avatar
mrgumby
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:53 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by mrgumby » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:39 am

I'm sorry but this is silly....You are looking for a reason to be worried when there isn't one. You say that a black hole that is moving is less dangerous than a stationary black hole. Does this mean that a moving black hole will not suck in matter until it has moved out of the atmosphere? C'mon....A black hole will start to suck the moment it is created. If the black hole does not evaporate very very quickly the earth will only exist for nanoseconds.
There are more important things to worry about.

On a lighter? note.....If the earth is destroyed by a black hole, who will be left to worry about it? :D

User avatar
chriwi
LHCPortal Guru
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:19 pm
Location: Stuttgart Germany
Contact:

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chriwi » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:22 am

First of all I not reallyworry, but second of all your asumptions are just not correct.
Not only I reason about the moving black holes and even scinentists who belive in bhs not being dnagerous assume that hypothetical stable micro blackholes might take days to millions of yoears to become harmful to the earth, your nanoseconds asumption is just wrong.
bye

chriwi

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:21 am

mrgumby wrote:I don't feel that there is a lot of logic in some of this.
If there are extreme energy collisions happening on the edge of the atmosphere all the time then there are only a limited number of ways of looking at them regarding black holes.

Either no black holes are produced, in which case we are unlikely to produce any at the much lower energy levels of the LHC.
or
Black holes are produced all the time and they evaporate without causing damage.

Either way....where is the problem?

Am I missing something? :think:
Yes, you are missing the fact that I'm not talking about black-holes, but about a chain-reaction, an autocatalytic event where collided particles are vaporized and combusted.

btw check this video out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRSK4k3D-50 of how a droplet of matter is fired back into space, just like the nuclear-bounce, where the micro-meteorite gets to be blown back into space by a miniature atomic explosion.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:18 am

mrgumby wrote:On a lighter? note.....If the earth is destroyed by a black hole, who will be left to worry about it? :D
Who says there is a lighter note, what if matter starts to vaporize and combust on it's own, melting down and slowly eating up all the surrounding matter, like the decomposition of a basket of apples. How do you stop such a thing, this could go on for a long time.

Decomposition or rotting: may be categorised in two stages by the types of end products. The first stage is characterized by the formation of liquid materials, matter begins to decompose. The second stage is limited to the production of vapors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

And a compost pile can start to combust spontaneously: Haystacks, compost piles and unprocessed cotton may self-ignite because of heat produced by bacterial fermentation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_combustion

btw Fermentation is derived from the Latin verb "fervere" which means "to boil". When two beams of protons collide, they will generate temperatures more than 100 000 times hotter than the heart of the Sun.

All these types of things start to happen when you surpass a certain threshold;
breaking down natural configurations.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Kasuha » Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:28 pm

Chelle wrote:Yes, you are missing the fact that I'm not talking about black-holes, but about a chain-reaction, an autocatalytic event where collided particles are vaporized and combusted.
This does not seem to be about particle physics anymore.
If a wet proton collides with dry electron, they can produce messy reaction with a lot of bananas and oranges flying around in all directions. I think they should extract protons from apple nuclei only, these are much safer than any others.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:50 pm

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:Yes, you are missing the fact that I'm not talking about black-holes, but about a chain-reaction, an autocatalytic event where collided particles are vaporized and combusted.
This does not seem to be about particle physics anymore.
If a wet proton collides with dry electron, they can produce messy reaction ...
So are you saying that there isn't any vapor generated during collisions? And isn't in fact the Higgs mechanism, which gives mass to vector bosons, a way of saying that it is wetting (saturating) the vector boson, so why wouldn't it also happen the other way around.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Post Reply