The CERN safety study

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
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Xymox
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The CERN safety study

Post by Xymox » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:14 pm

This is the study that the safety of LHC collisions is based on.

I personally find this a very complete and accurate study.

http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Tau » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:47 am

If only this were the end of all these stupid discussions...
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Stephen » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:55 am

That's because the LSAG focuses on 3 objects, and doesn't answer all of the questions suggested by doomsayers (vacuum metastability event, magnetic traps of devil, time travelers, visitors from other dimensions, quark gluon plasma, energy of heavy ion collisions compared to the same time of collisions in cosmic rays).

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Tau » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:18 pm

Well, not so fast. The problem here is that anyone can think of horrible scenarios, but that doesn't mean they have to be considered. We have to trust the physicists; we have no choice. Actually, we have to trust anyone who builds a really big machine anyway.
And since this is the most publicly documented big machine of them all, I have no reason at all not to trust it. :!:

To put it more clearly, but less politely: they also didn't address the possibility of the LHC becoming a landing beacon for aliens. 8-)
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Stephen » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:03 pm

I'm tired of people saying "you can't do anything about it, so just trust the physicists". It's making me a lot more scared and defenseless. It's fine saying the LHC is safe because there are astrophysical evidence to rule out dangerous scenarios, but don't expect people to just be relaxed because "physicists who work at CERN are geniuses and everyone who disagrees is insane". When some people say it when you direct serious questions at them, it really just disrespects the intelligence of the ones asking these questions. It's causing even more anxiety to people who are afraid of it, because you only make fun of them and provide them with no real information. Me and other people are reassured because we do our own research, call other physicists and ask questions. Not because we are helpless, dumb creatures who don't have a choice but putting our lives at the hands of someone else.

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by CharmQuark » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:58 pm

I don't think it's the fact that people make fun of us I think it's the fact they can't see why we are scared, this is why over the past few months I have explained in detail about why i am and what scares me about everything, yes Tau is right we do have to put out trust in them after all there is nothing else we can do still don't make it any easier to be less afraid, over the past months i have to admit i have become less scared about things why? am not really sure maybe it's the fact that at the end of the day we can't do anything about it all we can do is hope they don't get it wrong :crazy: remember they know what they are doing :thumbup: we are on the outside looking in but on the other hand we are in the best place ever and for seeing what is going on and getting the information we need that in it's self makes us some of the luckest people ever :yawinkle: I just want to sit back and enjoy the whole amazing experience :romance-hearteyes:
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by BTP » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:29 am

Tau wrote:If only this were the end of all these stupid discussions...
I think dismissing peoples' concerns as stupid is a little arrogant.

I was interested in the link kindly provided by Xymox to the LSAG report. Finally, access to a study that attempts to quantify the estimated number of collisions both in a collider and by interaction of cosmic rays and the earth.

On page 2 it poses the question:

On the other hand, the particles produced in cosmic-ray collisions typically have different velocities with respect to the Earth from those produced by accelerators, so the circumstances are not directly comparable. The question has therefore been asked whether Earth's immunity to cosmic-ray collisions also applies to accelerator collisions.

It seems that the answer to the question is simply 'It's happened many times in the known universe, therefore it must be safe'. But that assumes that the Earth's immunity to cosmic-ray collisions does apply to accelerator collisions without explaining why it does.

I am not convinced that the report has effectively answered this question. What do others think?

Cheers

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:13 pm

BTP wrote:
Tau wrote:If only this were the end of all these stupid discussions...
I think dismissing peoples' concerns as stupid is a little arrogant.
...
I am not convinced that the report has effectively answered this question. What do others think?
Tau says that the discussions are stupid, not that concerns are, because the discussions are most of the time between people who know nothing about particle physics, and people who have studied this branch of physics for years. It's like someone that says that artificial hail will destroy the world while it hails constantly on to earth, and the person making the accusation doesn't actually know a thing about hail. If you are a contrarian and do not accept the opinion of the experts, I would suggest you to become an expert and if the report still doesn't convince, you should write a paper and publish it.
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Shadowdraxx » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:33 pm

BTP wrote:
Tau wrote:If only this were the end of all these stupid discussions...
I think dismissing peoples' concerns as stupid is a little arrogant.

I was interested in the link kindly provided by Xymox to the LSAG report. Finally, access to a study that attempts to quantify the estimated number of collisions both in a collider and by interaction of cosmic rays and the earth.

On page 2 it poses the question:

On the other hand, the particles produced in cosmic-ray collisions typically have different velocities with respect to the Earth from those produced by accelerators, so the circumstances are not directly comparable. The question has therefore been asked whether Earth's immunity to cosmic-ray collisions also applies to accelerator collisions.

It seems that the answer to the question is simply 'It's happened many times in the known universe, therefore it must be safe'. But that assumes that the Earth's immunity to cosmic-ray collisions does apply to accelerator collisions without explaining why it does.

I am not convinced that the report has effectively answered this question. What do others think?

Cheers

Erm in that case your believing that the earth is the only planet in the universe, what about the other astronomical bodies that don't have atmospheres? what about the partcle showers upto 10^20 ev we look at every single day hmm?, which are a direct result of proton/proton interaction on our planet?.

What about companies like Intel putting $50 million a year into shielding against cosmic rays as some are so powerful they can destroy the electronic circuitry, or that Toyota are seriously looking into if cosmic rays are the cause of dodgy electronics on their cars.

The Earth is battered by these events everyday, and after 4.5 billion years its still standing strong, so is the moon the solar system the milky way etc etc, so you explain to us how events with upto ten million billion times stronger than those in the LHC which are happening now maybe directly to your face, and nothing bad happens means that the tiny ones man makes are...

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:04 pm

Shadowdraxx wrote:... what about the particle showers upto 10^20 ev we look at every single day hmm?
These are very, very rare perhaps 1 per year per km^2. They might be a local chain-reaction or some other event, ok this is just some fantasy of mine, but fact is we don't know a lot about this, and there is a significant jump between regular cosmic rays and the high energy ones:
The Utah researchers measured the energy of the unusual cosmic ray event in 1991 to be 3.2x1020 eV. They were stunned by their observation. They had previously believed that such energetic particles could not exist in the universe, because theory said the particles should rapidly lose their energy in collisions with the universal microwave radiation left over from the Big Bang . Thus, very high-energy particles now pose a cosmic mystery that has inspired a worldwide collaboration to begin planning the vast new detector called the Pierre Auger Cosmic Ray Observatory.
http://www.auger.org/cosmic_rays/big_events.html
Shadowdraxx wrote: ... so you explain to us how events with upto ten million billion times stronger than those in the LHC which are happening now maybe directly to your face, and nothing bad happens means that the tiny ones man makes are...
That's BS, most primary cosmic rays collisions happen above 15 km up in the air, on the roof of the troposphere and what we experience here are diminished secondary particles. There is even a limit to the hours that airline pilots may fly at high altitude because of cosmic ray damage.
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Shadowdraxx » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:23 pm

Chelle wrote:
Shadowdraxx wrote:... what about the particle showers upto 10^20 ev we look at every single day hmm?
These are very, very rare perhaps 1 per year per km^2. They might be a local chain-reaction or some other event, ok this is just some fantasy of mine, but fact is we don't know a lot about this, and there is a significant jump between regular cosmic rays and the high energy ones:
The Utah researchers measured the energy of the unusual cosmic ray event in 1991 to be 3.2x1020 eV. They were stunned by their observation. They had previously believed that such energetic particles could not exist in the universe, because theory said the particles should rapidly lose their energy in collisions with the universal microwave radiation left over from the Big Bang . Thus, very high-energy particles now pose a cosmic mystery that has inspired a worldwide collaboration to begin planning the vast new detector called the Pierre Auger Cosmic Ray Observatory.
http://www.auger.org/cosmic_rays/big_events.html
Shadowdraxx wrote: ... so you explain to us how events with upto ten million billion times stronger than those in the LHC which are happening now maybe directly to your face, and nothing bad happens means that the tiny ones man makes are...
That's BS, most primary cosmic rays collisions happen above 15 km up in the air, on the roof of the troposphere and what we experience here are diminished secondary particles. There is even a limit to the hours that airline pilots may fly at high altitude because of cosmic ray damage.

No some do mate some are that powerful that they create particle showers below the crust, they do indeed cut thro like a knife thro butter, we only observe the ones from the atmosphere because its a heck of a lot easier to spot and capture the event.

oh and that still equates to 1 million such events per year, hardly rare considering the TINY size of our planet compared to other astronomical bodies, and the universe as a whole, if you looked at the big picture you would see that its actually VERY routine.

So ill go back and stand by these arguments, why should it be up to folk to say why its safe when in actual fact it should be the other way round, show me why these routine events are NOT safe for us to do tiny versions of our own hmm?

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:29 pm

Shadowdraxx wrote:No some do mate some are that powerful that they create particle showers below the crust, they do indeed cut thro like a knife thro butter, we only observe the ones from the atmosphere because its a heck of a lot easier to spot and capture the event.

oh and that still equates to 1 million such events per year, hardly rare considering the TINY size of our planet compared to other astronomical bodies, and the universe as a whole, if you looked at the big picture you would see that its actually VERY routine.
This is interesting. If you can post a reference, I will bury the hatchet straight away.
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Shadowdraxx » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:48 pm

in its simplest form most astro websites:

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/documents/P ... aflet3.htm

Note that 99% of sites state that *most* change into secondary but non say all do, because sometimes ofc they can get thro and interact with us on the ground directly.


Hence why companies are looking at shielding secondary particles arnt really a worry.

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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:13 am

Shadowdraxx wrote:in its simplest form most astro websites:

http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/documents/P ... aflet3.htm

Note that 99% of sites state that *most* change into secondary but non say all do, because sometimes ofc they can get thro and interact with us on the ground directly.
This reference says nothing about high-energy-cosmic rays (10^20 TeV) being noticed at lower levels.

btw why do you think that jets have only been noticed for the first time by a team of japanese researchers in the 50's when detectors where lifted Up with balloons to great heights. And yes it says in the text "Cosmic-ray neutrinos, by contrast, are almost impossible to stop - they usually go right through the Earth!"
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Re: The CERN safety study

Post by Shadowdraxx » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:37 pm

you know what, your right, congratulations.

The oh my god particle and such were indeed discovered in the air and websites all around the world clearly state that 100% of cosmic rays break down in the atmosphere alone and non make it thro.

same goes for the moon, aye yeah indeed 4.4 billion years still standing without a thin layer of air molecules to protect it, but all the websites on cosmic ray interactions clearly state that 100% of cosmic rays break down in.. oh wait erm, OH NO the moon OMFG, its sure in big danger isn't it!

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