Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Tue May 05, 2015 2:43 pm

DCWhitworth wrote:Well your comparison with smoking doesn't really work. In the early days no one really thought smoking was especially dangerous...
No scientist thinks that the LHC is dangerous, the general public has no clue. No big difference there.

DCWhitworth wrote:There is a long tradition of doom preachers on virtually any boundary pushing exercise humanity has tried ...
You paint here the picture black & white, as if people being skeptical have always been wrong. You could push scientists that debate global warming in the doom preachers corner ... If you keep chopping down the Rainforest you get ...

DCWhitworth wrote:Indeed I'd suggest the motivation to ignore evidence in order to maintain and/or enhance their own position is much more prevalent with the doom sayers. They seek the oxygen of publicity and there is a gullible media all primed to circulate and boost such things. That's how we ended up in all this mess with vaccines.
Sure there are those who question vaccines, but there are also those who warn for the overuse of Anti-biotics or pesticides that kill bees ... are them also doom preachers seeking oxygen?

Anyway you skipped the most important part about vibrations in the Higgs Field Superfluid because you also don't know, and that's where the real issue is, and one that is being swiped under the carpet by people like you who prefer to ramble on about vaccine or fall of the planet trying to ridicule skeptics.

I'm adding here again the clip about a Spark at the Apollo program to show how science in reality progresses through trial and error (read small disasters):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8chx10UbI8
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Kasuha
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by Kasuha » Thu May 07, 2015 9:17 am

chelle wrote:
DCWhitworth wrote:There is a long tradition of doom preachers on virtually any boundary pushing exercise humanity has tried ...
You paint here the picture black & white, as if people being skeptical have always been wrong.
You paint the picture as if everyone skeptical about anything is a doom preacher.

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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Thu May 07, 2015 5:19 pm

Kasuha wrote:
chelle wrote:
DCWhitworth wrote:There is a long tradition of doom preachers on virtually any boundary pushing exercise humanity has tried ...
You paint here the picture black & white, as if people being skeptical have always been wrong.
You paint the picture as if everyone skeptical about anything is a doom preacher.
I guess it's a matter of logic. Not all skeptics are Doom Preachers, but all Doom Preachers are skeptics. I went for the latter.
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draph91
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by draph91 » Fri May 08, 2015 1:51 pm

chelle wrote: I guess it's a matter of logic. Not all skeptics are Doom Preachers, but all Doom Preachers are skeptics. I went for the latter.
so you're a skeptic then?
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Fri May 08, 2015 3:41 pm

draph91 wrote:
chelle wrote: I guess it's a matter of logic. Not all skeptics are Doom Preachers, but all Doom Preachers are skeptics. I went for the latter.
so you're a skeptic then?
... and a Preacher of Doom. :mrgreen:

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draph91
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by draph91 » Sat May 30, 2015 7:00 pm

chelle wrote:
draph91 wrote:
chelle wrote: I guess it's a matter of logic. Not all skeptics are Doom Preachers, but all Doom Preachers are skeptics. I went for the latter.
so you're a skeptic then?
... and a Preacher of Doom. :mrgreen:

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please tell me you're joking
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Sat May 30, 2015 7:10 pm

draph91 wrote:please tell me you're joking
:snooty:


Edit: Fear is one of the best motivators, just like hunger.

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draph91
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by draph91 » Sat May 30, 2015 8:25 pm

chelle wrote:
draph91 wrote:please tell me you're joking
:snooty:


Edit: Fear is one of the best motivators, just like hunger.

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that's actually a good quote
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:18 pm

FYI

I got a newsletter update today from the 'LHC-Kritik' regarding the new record.
For distribution:

Press Release LHC-Kritik / LHC-Critique - Network for safety at experimental subnuclear reactors
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CERN/LHC-Critics: CERN has not improved LHC safety and thus accepts possible existential risks while doubling the energy.
LHC-restart is a scandal for mankind and science!


CERN’s main contradiction can be put in easy words. CERN says: We are producing conditions matter like it has existed fractions of a second after the Big Bang. We got no clue about the outcomes. But we are sure that nothing dangerous will happen.

In effect, CERN simply accepts residual (?) existential risks to planet Earth and mankind, pretending to the public that everything is pretty safe.

During the upgrade of the LHC that cost hundreds of millions, CERN has not conducted a single safety measure proposed by critics.
The main safety measures would be:
Conducting an interdisciplinary safety assessment of the LHC - independent from CERN and involving the sciences of risk research and sociology of science.
At least a step by step increase of the collision energies eventually could show warning signs of unexpected and dangerous collision products.

Without taking any of these safety measures, CERN plans to smash particles at double the energies of before. This poses, one would hope, certain eventually small (?), but fundamentally unpredictable catastrophic risks to planet Earth.

Further explenation:

Basically the same group of critics, including Professors and Doctors, that had previously filed a law suit against CERN in the US and Europe, still opposes the restart for basically the same reasons. Dangers of: (“Micro”-)Black Holes, Strangelets, Vacuum Bubbles, etc., etc. are of course and maybe will forever be - still in discussion. No specific improvements concerning the safety assessment of the LHC have been conducted by CERN or anybody meanwhile. There is still no proper and really independent risk assessment (the 'LSAG-report' has been done by CERN itself) - and the science of risk research is still not really involved in the issue. This is a scientific and political scandal and that’s why the restart is a sad day for science and humanity.

High energy experiments like the LHC at the nuclear research centre CERN are extreme energy consumers (needing the power of a nuclear plant). Their construction is extremely costly (presently 7 Billion Euros) and practical benefits are not in sight. The experiments eventually pose existential risks and these risks have not been properly investigated.

There are countless evidences for the necessity of an external and multidisciplinary safety assessment of the LHC. According to a pre-study in risk research, CERN fits less than a fifth of the criteria for a modern risk assessment (see the press release below). It is not acceptable that the clueless member states point at the operator CERN itself, while this regards its self-set security measures as sufficient, in spite of critique from risk researchers, continuous debates and the publication of further papers pointing at concrete dangers eventually arising from the experiments. Presently science has to admit that the risk is disputed and basically unknown.

It will not be possible to keep up this ostrich policy much longer. Especially facing further planned upgrades of the LHC and the possible construction of further particle accelerators, CERN, the community of physicists and the involved member states will be confronted with increasing critique from scientific and civil side that the most powerful particle collider has yet not been challenged in a neutral and multidisciplinary safety assessment. CERN has yet not answered to pragmatic proposals for such a process that also should constructively involve critics and CERN. Also further legal steps from different sides are possible.

The member states that are financing the CERN budget, the UN or private funds are addressed to provide resources to finally initiate a neutral and multidisciplinary risk assessment on giant particle accelerator risks. Without that, “Big Bang Machines” like the LHC actually should not operate at all. Also, CERN critics oppose any public funding of this research.

The next billions of years will be hard enough without CERN.

Articles:
- „LHC-Kritik“-press release:
http://www.oekonews.at/index.php?mdoc_id=1098014
- Press release by our partner "Risk Evaluation Forum": http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/newsbg.pdf
- Background Documents, provided by our partner “LHC Safety Review”: http://www.lhcsafetyreview.org/
- Study proclaiming the possibility of Micro Black Holes at the LHC: http://phys.org/news/2015-03-mini-black ... allel.html
- New paper by Dr. Thomas B. Kerwick, pointing at shortcomings in CERN’s safety report: http://vixra.org/abs/1503.0066
- Prof Otto E. Roessler: “No one knows at what likelihood Black Holes will be produced in June at CERN”:
https://lifeboat.com/blog/2015/05/no-on ... ne-at-cern
- New Paper by our partner “Heavy Ion Alert“: http://www.heavyionalert.org/:
“Finally, we call upon both the Federal Assembly and the Federal Council to establish a robust regulatory framework for the LHC. It is of no benefit to the Swiss people or the rest of humanity to say that Switzerland is not liable for any damage caused by CERN. Switzerland retains an undeniable obligation to ensure that experiments at CERN do not endanger its citizens or the planet. That obligation cannot be fulfilled without first addressing the documented flaws [6] in the current safety report for the LHC. We strongly urge the Federal Assembly and the Federal Council to commission a truly independent and interdisciplinary panel of experts [39] which, along with a remit to consider LHC safety critical submissions from the public, would closely examine the existing safety arguments that support operation of the LHC. The LHC programme of high-energy collisions should only recommence if this panel finds that those arguments are rigorous and reliable.”

All info at our website http://www.LHC-concern.info merely has not lost any relevance.

LHC-Kritik / LHC-Critique – Network for safety at experimental subnuclear reactors
Last edited by chelle on Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:02 am

And a follow up today:
This story can now be found on several places in the internet:

Large Hadron Collider turned BACK ON but could 'create GIANT black hole and DESTROY earth'

THE entire universe could be swallowed up at ANY second after a brain-warpingly complex machine that can make black holes was switched BACK on at DOUBLE its previous power.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/58 ... ed-back-on

Also new:
CERN-Kritiker: CERN nimmt die existentiellen Risiken einfach in Kauf

3.6.2015
LHC-Neustart ist ein Skandal für Menschheit und Wissenschaft!
http://www.oekonews.at/index.php?mdoc_id=1099428

Safety Assessment of CERN’s LHC was not independent!

3.6.2015
How the safety review of CERN's large hadron collider is not independent of CERN itself and how both the Swiss Federal Council and Control Committees either contradict or do not admit this fact.
http://www.oekonews.at/index.php?mdoc_id=1099408

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/particle.collider/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/LHC.Critique/
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by CharmQuark » Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:31 pm

Well ain't this a great little thread :D hope you guys are doing find and dandy? remember if it all goes wrong there is still the Ice Comet ;)
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:59 pm

CharmQuark wrote:Well ain't this a great little thread :D hope you guys are doing find and dandy? remember if it all goes wrong there is still the Ice Comet ;)
I'm not doing fine, I've been sweating like a pig since the machine restarted. :mrgreen:

btw What does 'the Ice Comet' mean ... sounds cool.
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by CharmQuark » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:21 pm

Hahaha The Ice Comet is something Ivan made up years ago! I am going to be the pilot and take most of the forum away to some far off land way out of danger :D
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chelle
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Re: Heavy Ion Collisions safety

Post by chelle » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:04 pm

CharmQuark wrote:Hahaha The Ice Comet is something Ivan made up years ago! I am going to be the pilot and take most of the forum away to some far off land way out of danger :D
You'll have to come up with something fresher that an 'Ice Comet' because if, or better, when the LHC blows up our place it goes SuperNova-style and it will catch you guy's up in no time, swallowing you up like a Tsunami ... the heat melting your ride first into some drizzle so you won't be able to steer that thing no more ... and next vaporising you lot into space dust. :mrgreen:
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