Magnetic monopoles found?

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JNW
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:48 pm

Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by JNW » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:37 pm

ORION111 wrote:JNW, would you like to provide legitimate references? You do know we have detectors in space recording cosmic rays and ultra-high energy photons directly?
Yes, I know about space detectors, and high altitude balloon detectors.

These detectors don't have a very large collecting area. Cosmic rays of 10^17eV and higher are very rare. A square meter of earth's surface may only get one or two such cosmic rays PER CENTURY. So no, these detectors don't detect ultra high energy cosmic rays.

There is also the problem that these detectors are rather thin. That's good enough for low energy cosmic rays, but not for the ultra high energy cosmic rays. There is a reason why the main detectors of the LHC are so large. They have to be large to tell what's going on with these high energy collisions. So even if one of these cosmic rays hit a detector, it wouldn't give us much useful information.

To detect ultra high energy cosmic rays, you need something like the Pierre Auger Observatory. This observatory covers thousands of square kilometers. It has telescopes that monitor the sky for fluorescence of nitrogen molecules caused by the secondary particles, and an array of water tanks that act as Cherenkov detectors. This gives us a rough estimate of the energy and direction of a cosmic ray. It doesn't tell much about the what the cosmic ray was, except that it was able to dump a lot of energy into the atmosphere when it hit.
ORION111 wrote:
JNW wrote:It looks to me like assuming these particles are protons is pure guesswork, and a poor guess at that.
This statement is wrong. First, learn about cosmic rays.
Ugh! First you declare me wrong, then instead of giving any reason you give a link to an irrelevant Wikipedia article.

This is not about low energy cosmic rays, it's about ultra high energy cosmic rays. The correct Wikipedia article is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high ... cosmic_ray

Now let's look at that article. It says (of the OMG particle) "It was most probably a proton". But where did that come from? Well there's a reference given, and it's even a link! http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/OhMyGodParticle/

So we now look at that link, and it says: "All evidence points to these extremely high energy particles being protons"

Huh? What evidence? I keep seeing statements like this, but never any evidence to back them up. That's what's bothering me.

I've looked and I did find things like: http://dpnc.unige.ch/ams/ICRC-03/FILES/PDF/101.pdf
That seems to rule out gamma rays, but that's about it.

And the KASCADE results seem to suggest that protons go up to around 10e16 eV.

What I haven't found is any good evidence that some cosmic rays of 10^17 and above are protons.


But I am not the one making the claim that needs to be proved. You, ORION111, are the one who claims that there are cosmic ray events that are just like LHC collisions. That is only true if some of the cosmic rays above 10^17eV are protons. I can find no evidence for that, and you have provided no evidence for that. The burden of proof is on you.

Shadowdraxx
LHCPortal Guru
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Shadowdraxx » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:13 pm

JNW wrote:


These detectors don't have a very large collecting area. Cosmic rays of 10^17eV and higher are very rare. A square meter of earth's surface may only get one or two such cosmic rays PER CENTURY. So no, these detectors don't detect ultra high energy cosmic rays.
Wrong as stated by your own comment about the "omg particle" example

Also when taking out the minute earth equation they are NOT rare, 1 typical UHECR per sq km per year on the PATHETIC size of the earth is not rare mate dunno how you make that assumption, in the grand scheme of things... yes rare to be able to record, not rare as in happening all the time.




To detect ultra high energy cosmic rays, you need something like the Pierre Auger Observatory. wrong as we have detected thousand of these events since the OMG particle This observatory covers thousands of square kilometers.

There is also the problem that these detectors are rather thin. That's good enough for low energy cosmic rays, but not for the ultra high energy cosmic rays. Funny enough this answers your own question below

ORION111 wrote:
JNW wrote:It looks to me like assuming these particles are protons is pure guesswork, and a poor guess at that.
This statement is wrong. First, learn about cosmic rays.
Ugh! First you declare me wrong, then instead of giving any reason you give a link to an irrelevant Wikipedia article.

His answer was based on your NON supported comments that the LHC particle collisions are to be the first on planet earth, hense you were indeed wrong were you not?

This is not about low energy cosmic rays, it's about ultra high energy cosmic rays. The correct Wikipedia article is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high ... cosmic_ray

Now let's look at that article. It says (of the OMG particle) "It was most probably a proton". But where did that come from? Well there's a reference given, and it's even a link! http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/OhMyGodParticle/

So we now look at that link, and it says: "All evidence points to these extremely high energy particles being protons"

Huh? What evidence? I keep seeing statements like this, but never any evidence to back them up. That's what's bothering me.


Well see your own comment above you answered your own question



But I am not the one making the claim that needs to be proved. You, ORION111, are the one who claims that there are cosmic ray events that are just like LHC collisions. That is only true if some of the cosmic rays above 10^17eV are protons. I can find no evidence for that, and you have provided no evidence for that. The burden of proof is on you.
No mate its for you to educate yourself and show us your findings for discussion not for us to spend hours "proving" you incorrect, after you make dramatic remarks, then back peddle afterwards once we have been forced to respond.

JNW
Posts: 42
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by JNW » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:06 am

ORION111 wrote: what about the last post by Shadowdraxx and the following:
JNW wrote:These particles aren't affected by the GZK limit that limits the energy of protons.
How do you know that "these particles" aren't affected by the GZK limit?
I was looking at the AGASA results. There were a number of cosmic rays detected that were above the GZK limit, where less than one detection was expected. It looked like the cosmic ray spectrum wasn't being affected by the GZK limit at all. However, some other detectors are not seeing particles above the GZK limit. The reason for this discrepancy isn't known. It may just be a problem with the AGASA results, though, so I retract my comment about the cosmic rays ignoring the GZK limit.
JNW wrote:The only problem monopoles might cause is if the LHC produces so many that they could interfere with the dynamo that produces the earth's magnetic field. If that happens, the LHC would have to be shut down until monopole traps are placed around the collision points.
Where did anyone at CERN or elsewhere said that they may have to place monopole traps?
That was tongue in cheek. The physicists at CERN would be ecstatic to detect any magnetic monopoles at all. It would be much bigger than finding the Higgs. And if they did detect a monopole, then they would certainly hustle to set up traps to catch one, because they would really love to have a captive monopole to study. Thus, the idea that monopoles would spew out of the LHC in such numbers as to actually threaten the environment struck me as amusing.

I apologize for the joke. I now know that my humor is extremely unwelcome on this forum, and I will avoid posting anything amusing here in the future.

Stephen
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Stephen » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:13 am

Stephen wrote:
ORION111 wrote: You can understand from here why even the proton-decaying monopoles are safe.
In each collision a nucleon is destroyed so the escaping monopole will destroy 10^18 nucleons: negligibly small compared to the total number of nucleons. Given this, we do not think it necessary to estimate the production rate for such new states because, even if there is no suppression in the production at the LHC, they do not present any conceivable threat.
That's exactly what I'm worrying about - how long does it take for it to destroy 10^18? The monopoles leave the earth, but what happens to our solar system after that? Can it come back to earth or damage our sun?
Hi, could you please answer the above? :sleeping-asleep:

Stephen
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Stephen » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:37 am

If you say the safety of such monopoles depends on their number, then how could you know in advance they pose no threat to the solar system, and why did the report say there's no need to estimate the number of these monopoles?

Once the monopoles ruin 10^18 proton on earth, what happens to them?
That said, to produce the proton-decaying monopoles below their ultra-GUT energy regime they require extra-dimensions, and for them to be produced at the LHC energy regime they require very-large extra-dimensions.
So it is theoretically possible.

Shadowdraxx
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Shadowdraxx » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:49 pm

I apologise if your comments were only made in jest JNW, just some readers dont react well to scary sounding stuff.

Stephen
Posts: 496
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Stephen » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:12 pm

Shadowdraxx wrote:I apologise if your comments were only made in jest JNW, just some readers dont react well to scary sounding stuff.
Yes, like me. But today I talked to a physics professor and he explained this to me and reassured me again that any magnetic monopole created will just fly over to space and won't come back or cause trouble. There's no reason to be afraid of what will happen next month or after that (mostly talking to myself right now). :sleeping-asleep:

Shadowdraxx
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Re: Magnetic monopoles found?

Post by Shadowdraxx » Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:26 pm

well it concerns me aswell stephen your not alone in fearing some unknowns, but education and data to chew thro helps everyone, come to a settled place.

It's also worth pointing out that the Anti LHC crew (aka the "crackpots" as some call them), arnt able to come up with doomsday scenario's before the LHC reaches its Design spec, so really you have to take comfort in that you have another 2 years or so to really sink your teeth into the LHC if you feel the need too.

well apart from Ivan...

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