LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

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chelle
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:28 am

mfb wrote:Some things are very easy to spot … This is a bit different from gravitational wave detectors …
Well that is my point from the start, the LHC can only detect the linear decay that I mentioned previously, but not the other vibrations that the LHC is producing at a frequency and density that is a billion times higher than Cosmic Rays in nature.
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by mfb » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:30 pm

There are no "other vibrations".

You are trapped in your misconception.

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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:45 pm

mfb wrote:There are no "other vibrations".
The LHC can produce Micro Black Holes, and if LIGO detects waves from BH's that are 2 million light years away … than surely there are vibrations at the LHC. Billions. Think! :mrgreen:
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by mfb » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:05 pm

chelle wrote:The LHC can produce Micro Black Holes
There is no indication that it could, and these black holes would be obvious if they would have been produced. Even if could, they wouldn't produce notable gravitational waves.
and if LIGO detects waves from BH's that are 2 million light years away
Roughly a billion light years away. From two black holes with tens of solar masses, releasing the energy-equivalent of three solar masses in fractions of a second. These black hole mergers briefly have a power exceeding the total power (all types of emission) of every other source in the observable universe combined.

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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:33 pm

mfb wrote:
chelle wrote:The LHC can produce Micro Black Holes
There is no indication that it could, and these black holes would be obvious if they would have been produced. Even if could, they wouldn't produce notable gravitational waves.
You probably mean here 'detectable'.

… and of course not, because those signals drown within all the noise, as LIGO has shown how difficult it is to detect in all quietness waves within a limited spectrum, even at LIGO all the other frequencies of GW's are undetectable due to noise.
mfb wrote:
and if LIGO detects waves from BH's that are 2 million light years away
Roughly a billion light years away. From two black holes with tens of solar masses, releasing the energy-equivalent of three solar masses in fractions of a second. These black hole mergers briefly have a power exceeding the total power (all types of emission) of every other source in the observable universe combined.
Yes, and one can lit a forest fire with a tiny spark, that has similarly zillions of times less energy than an Atom-bomb, but it can be as devastating.

You can even start such a fire with rubbing a piece of would often enough until it heats up. That's what's happening at the LHC, one super tiny rub after an other at an incredible high rate, until you get a flash.

It is the law of multiplication 9.000.000.000 times 1 within 1 second, heating things up.
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by mfb » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:37 pm

chelle wrote:
mfb wrote:
chelle wrote:The LHC can produce Micro Black Holes
There is no indication that it could, and these black holes would be obvious if they would have been produced. Even if could, they wouldn't produce notable gravitational waves.
You probably mean here 'detectable'.
Both. It is something like 50 to 100 orders of magnitude too weak to be detected, and also 20 to 50 orders of magnitude too weak to play a role in the collision. It is so utterly negligible that it doesn't even need more precise estimates.
Yes, and one can lit a forest fire with a tiny spark, that has similarly zillions of times less energy than an Atom-bomb, but it can be as devastating.

You can even start such a fire with rubbing a piece of would often enough until it heats up. That's what's happening at the LHC, one super tiny rub after an other at an incredible high rate, until you get a flash.
There is not even a forest. The vacuum is the lowest-energy state.
It is the law of multiplication 9.000.000.000 times 1 within 1 second, heating things up.
There is nothing to heat up.

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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:59 am

mfb wrote:Both. It is something like 50 to 100 orders of magnitude too weak to be detected, and also 20 to 50 orders of magnitude too weak to play a role in the collision. It is so utterly negligible that it doesn't even need more precise estimates.
Sure one or two collisions per second are 'negligible' but it are many small creeks that feed a river.
mfb wrote:
You can even start such a fire with rubbing a piece of would often enough until it heats up. That's what's happening at the LHC, one super tiny rub after an other at an incredible high rate, until you get a flash.
There is not even a forest. The vacuum is the lowest-energy state.
Yes the Vacuum is the lowest-energy state, but not without energy, it can transmit gravity-waves, that in turn can heat up matter that surrounds the collision spot. Just like during a forest fire; where a couple of spark can lit up a tree, and how the heat is transmitted through the air to lit one tree after the other causing a chain-reaction.

So I am not saying that the Vacuum will combust, but it can transmit heat-waves from one Atom, that combusts and collapses, onto the next one. Earth is made of nothing than Atoms => Forest.

mfb wrote:
It is the law of multiplication 9.000.000.000 times 1 within 1 second, heating things up.
There is nothing to heat up.
The LHC squeezes the bunches into one collision spot:

Image

That is like a magnifying glass bundling heat into one spot to start a fire:

Image

But it isn't the air that starts to burn, it is what surrounds the collision spot.

--

Now we are at A. The incipient stage, moving on to B. The smouldering stage, but we are not able to detect the fumes, so just keep on going until one point where we get at C. The flaming stage and it is too late. :mrgreen:

Image
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:47 am

You're late, I already posted a link to that (original) response a few posts ago.

There is however a new article by Ethan Siegel on the subject:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... hoaScience

Based on a new response from the Danish group on the link you just posted:

http://www.nbi.ku.dk/gravitational-waves/
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:22 pm

mfb wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:37 pm
chelle wrote:
mfb wrote: There is no indication that it could, and these black holes would be obvious if they would have been produced. Even if could, they wouldn't produce notable gravitational waves.
You probably mean here 'detectable'.
Both. It is something like 50 to 100 orders of magnitude too weak to be detected, and also 20 to 50 orders of magnitude too weak to play a role in the collision. It is so utterly negligible that it doesn't even need more precise estimates.
Someone asked me today where you got these numbers because there's nothing published on particle collisions generating gravitational waves. Could you enlighten us or was it just some hand waving?
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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by mfb » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:14 pm

I plugged in numbers into the quadrupole formula. There is nothing published because a one-minute calculation shows it is tens of orders of magnitude too weak to be relevant.


Virgo joined LIGO in the science run on Tuesday, this months they will measure together. Afterwards all three detectors will go into another upgrade phase (for ~1 year) to improve the sensitivity.

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Re: LIGO - Was It All Just Noise?

Post by chelle » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:56 pm

Ok. Thanks!
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