The Energy Frontier

The place to discuss the LHC. Commissioning, operation, issues, events ....
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DCWhitworth
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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by DCWhitworth » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:44 pm

Eloisatron from Wikipedia - "In view of the high costs and difficulties related to the enormous size of the accelerator and the problem of finding a site for its realization, the scientific community believes that the project is unfeasible"
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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Stephen » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:47 pm

DCWhitworth wrote:Eloisatron from Wikipedia - "In view of the high costs and difficulties related to the enormous size of the accelerator and the problem of finding a site for its realization, the scientific community believes that the project is unfeasible"
Great news. What about the Linear?

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by DCWhitworth » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:57 pm

Stephen wrote:
DCWhitworth wrote:Eloisatron from Wikipedia - "In view of the high costs and difficulties related to the enormous size of the accelerator and the problem of finding a site for its realization, the scientific community believes that the project is unfeasible"
Great news. What about the Linear?
Well this is the difficulty with the next generation of accelerators, the gestation period is significantly longer than the lifetime of governments that are needed to sponsor them.
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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by DCWhitworth » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:20 pm

ORION111 wrote:
DCWhitworth wrote:Eloisatron from Wikipedia - "In view of the high costs and difficulties related to the enormous size of the accelerator and the problem of finding a site for its realization, the scientific community believes that the project is unfeasible"
Eloisatron is pretty much canceled.
I wrote it here because it was a significant project.

Eloisatron was to have incredible center-of-mass energies from 200 TeV to 1 PeV (1,000 TeV).
I wonder whether a device of such size is actually viable. Assuming you could actually muster the resources and cooperation to build it, it would be so vast and complex you'd be starting to hit the point of diminishing returns due to the cumulative MTBF of the parts.
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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Stephen » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:37 am

Not to mention the media hysteria which would surround such a project. I'm absolutely relieved we won't be dealing with that.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Shadowdraxx » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:20 am

tbh at that level of power isnt the cost outweigh the benefits?

I mean the LHC has already eaten up budget which was originally reserved for nuclear research on nuclear power plants (uk).

what are the advantages of going higher than standard cosmic events btw?

UHECRS havnt even been given even slighty enough study yet, so seems foolish to build something your not sure your supposed to build. (from a understanding viewpoint).

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by CharmQuark » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:46 am

Shadowdraxx wrote:tbh at that level of power isnt the cost outweigh the benefits?

I mean the LHC has already eaten up budget which was originally reserved for nuclear research on nuclear power plants (uk).

what are the advantages of going higher than standard cosmic events btw?

UHECRS havnt even been given even slighty enough study yet, so seems foolish to build something your not sure your supposed to build. (from a understanding viewpoint).
you know shadowdraxx we should just party :dance: you up for it? :thumbup:
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Shadowdraxx » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:56 am

emmylou wrote:
you know shadowdraxx we should just party :dance: you up for it? :thumbup:
I'd looove to however im off to the us at the end of the week, california and florida if anyones from around these small but actually large areas of the us.


but here have some crazy emotes!


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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Stephen » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:25 am

Wait, did they seriousely suggest going higher than cosmic rays? They'll have no safety reassurance if they decide to do it. Do they really want to risk vacuum bubbles being created? That's sick. Luckily it's out of consideration.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by DCWhitworth » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:36 am

Stephen wrote:Wait, did they seriousely suggest going higher than cosmic rays? They'll have no safety reassurance if they decide to do it. Do they really want to risk vacuum bubbles being created? That's sick. Luckily it's out of consideration.
Well likely a machine like the LHC will give us greater understanding of the physics behind this stuff and prove/disprove various theories currently wobbling around so that they will be able to say that the new machine is safe.

But the gestation period of such a new machine would be so long that planning has to start before the previous machine (LHC) has concluded its work.

For all the great running at the end of last year the LHC is effectively almost six years behind schedule (Planned start date 2007, actual date of 7TeV running c.2013) which just shows the difficulties of any project so massive.
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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Stephen » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:56 am

Their theories don't matter. Once they decide to go higher than cosmic rays, they'll have no safety reassurance. If they decide to bet or risk it anyway, it'll be a crime against humanity and we must stop such a stupid action.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Shadowdraxx » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:48 pm

For me I view the LHC as a discovery machine thats safe, as far as our past research on colliders and cosmic ray work can show us.

So the cost factor of $10 billion or what ever is a small price to pay really.

The governments involved can each afford to give $400 million here or there to see what we can learn for the future, but as far as the next gen goes whaaoaa.

To build from scratch an LHC now would cost in excess of around $25 billion, (because of the cost of building the tunnels planning etc etc red tape blah blah) a harder pill to swollow for getting grants, a 5 fold in energy and lol your prob talking $50 billion for the size it would need to be, I cant see any government stumping up cash for a research project of that cost, especially if they can not show current experimental data as to why they need it.

No I believe the future of this stuff is in making compact accelerators, they can reduce costs and get the power needed without spanning entire countries underground, and governements will be happy to sign off on them.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Allan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:20 pm

Stephen wrote:Their theories don't matter. Once they decide to go higher than cosmic rays, they'll have no safety reassurance. If they decide to bet or risk it anyway, it'll be a crime against humanity and we must stop such a stupid action.

You are beginning to sound a lot like Ivan with your crimes against humanity comments.

Allan

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Shadowdraxx » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:29 pm

well allan, I think really he's saying its a really dumb idea to spend loads of money on something you cant show is safe and or is subject to massive budget requirements. (SSC take note).

I just think personally its a silly idea to build something based on old school thinking, without upto date knowledge as to why, when and how.

For example by 2025 there aims to be a 900Gev Laser based accelerator, size is lol compared to the stuff they wanna build atm, 230 metres long, and they are doing it on a shoe string budget, not taking into consideration that this research is perfect for getting around fusion reactor issues.

Why look at old ways when there are so many emerging techs.

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Re: The Energy Frontier

Post by Stephen » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:31 pm

Exactly. The LHC has been proven safe by empirical evidence, so it is not considered as a risk to the earth. However, if you go beyond that energy, you have no way of showing the collisions won't lead to something dangerous to happen. In such a case, doing collisions which can't be proven safe and put the entire earth at risk should be forbidden. Not to mention the huge budget which could be spent to do better things, such as detecting and deflecting asteroids or funding medical research and universities. The costs will overweight the benefits, if we ever decide to do something like that.

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