Vacuum?

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chelle
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Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:16 pm

Hello,

The last few days there was in the news this paper where the US government admitted that UFO Hoax in Roswell (link). And on a site there was a comment and a link to a Berkeley University physics lecture about waves, wherein an explanation was given to what actually happened.

link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7622&hl=en

Anyway, an other interesting thing mentioned in the lecture is at minute 20 to 22 where the professor discusses the Aether and Vacuum and where he says: "What is the Vacuum made of? ... it is the thing that waves."

So perhaps less mysterious than the UFO's there is a thing that waves, but what is it, and why do particle physicist boldly ignore it?

ps: I thought of adding this to the Fishing with Dynamite (Blast fishing) topic in the End of the World section but I believe its an crucial question on its own.
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Kasuha
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by Kasuha » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:14 pm

Chelle wrote:link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7622&hl=en

Anyway, an other interesting thing mentioned in the lecture is at minute 20 to 22 where the professor discusses the Aether and Vacuum and where he says: "What is the Vacuum made of? ... it is the thing that waves."

So perhaps less mysterious than the UFO's there is a thing that waves, but what is it, and why do particle physicist boldly ignore it?
I don't think putting quite a lot of effort into studying something can be called "ignoring".
The matter is, regardless whether you want to call it vacuum or aether it's still the same thing. And there's no point in trying to assign it different properties through calling it a different name because it's the substance what's being studied, not the name.

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chelle
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:53 pm

Kasuha wrote:I don't think putting quite a lot of effort into studying something can be called "ignoring".
With ignoring I meant: aligning cosmic ray collisions at high altitude, where there is a very low density of matter, to the setup of the LHC where (solid) matter is much denser, ignoring the possible fact that high energetic collisions could shake up surrounding matter through waves in the Vacuum.

As it is also done on the Wiki page of Vacuum:

"In quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, the vacuum is defined as the state with the lowest possible energy." - wiki

This should be: ... with the lowest possible energy measurable.

Kasuha wrote:The matter is, regardless whether you want to call it vacuum or aether it's still the same thing. And there's no point in trying to assign it different properties through calling it a different name because it's the substance what's being studied, not the name.
Granted.
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Kasuha
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by Kasuha » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:03 pm

Chelle wrote:This should be: ... with the lowest possible energy measurable.

There's no need to make statements on obvious facts. The only way how we perceive the world around us is through measuring. All of our senses are measuring tools, which evolved to measure different physical properties of the world such as light or sound intensity, chemical composition, force direction etc.
There's sure no big deal with believing in existence of something that cannot be measured - the only problem is that it's called religion, not science.

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Re: Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:53 am

Kasuha wrote:There's sure no big deal with believing in existence of something that cannot be measured - the only problem is that it's called religion, not science.
So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?
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Kasuha
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:22 am

Chelle wrote:So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?
Quite the opposite - LHC is a project aimed at (among others) either turning belief into Higgs into real science or proving Higgs is not measurable in which case scientists are going to abandon their beliefs in it.

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chelle
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:07 am

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?
Quite the opposite - LHC is a project aimed at (among others) either turning belief into Higgs into real science or proving Higgs is not measurable in which case scientists are going to abandon their beliefs in it.
Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?
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Kasuha
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:34 am

Chelle wrote:Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?
I don't see any problem in calling things one wants to believe without having a proof a religion. There's a whole lot of things I believe without having (or understanding) the proof. I just keep my freedom to choose things I believe and have my own methods how to consider if an idea is worth believing or not. And I don't have problem abandoning an idea if I later find it not worth believing.

For instance, I don't have any proof LHC is working. It may be a great conspiracy with people in CERN sitting at their laptops busy generating random images, logs and pictures just to make us all over the world happy. But I choose to believe it actually runs.

On the other hand, I don't see any reason to believe your ideas and I rather tend to believe they are wrong because they don't match with my other beliefs - such as the belief that we still exist.

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Re: Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:56 am

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?
I don't see any problem in calling things one wants to believe without having a proof a religion.
Ok, than I'll stop your 'religious' thoughts. Believing or considering something is a different thing than religion, here is some proof: "The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs ... " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
Kasuha wrote:On the other hand, I don't see any reason to believe your ideas and I rather tend to believe they are wrong because they don't match with my other beliefs - such as the belief that we still exist.
Your argumentation makes no sense. Its the same as saying: "We will not find the Higgs, because we haven't found it yet."

My interest, or believe as you like to call it, is to know if different collision frequencies and settings have different results.
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Kasuha
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:38 pm

It's funny to see you to suddenly ask for rational argumentation.

"Let's assume the world is made of wooden domino bricks. AND I WANT A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ABOUT IT!"
:clap:

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chelle
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Re: Vacuum?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:12 pm

Kasuha wrote:It's funny to see you to suddenly ask for rational argumentation.

"Let's assume the world is made of wooden domino bricks. AND I WANT A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ABOUT IT!"
Why question my rationality? All I have been doing is following my first impulse regarding high-energy collisions, and see if they could trigger a chain-reaction, domino's are here for a good analogy. When considering this option one has to take in account the structure of the Vacuum (Aether) because it could play a significant role.

There is also nothing fundamentally wrong with questioning the density of the collisions surrounding matter, or the frequency of collisions themselves, especially if you consider that we are surpassing energy levels of regular cosmic ray collisions, and that we are only topped by very rare single cases of ultra-high-energy-collisions, of which we know very little.


Edit: "Nambu, along with Jeffrey Goldstone and Peter Higgs, applied this idea to the quantum theory of fields, specifically to the lowest-energy state known as "the vacuum". The vacuum, generally thought of as the absence of matter, is surprisingly complex."
http://www-public.slac.stanford.edu/bab ... etries.htm
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