Mental illness

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This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site.

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Any controversial topic can be discussed. Freedom of expression is encouraged. The scientific validity of things posted in this forum may stray from reality quite wildly and the reader is advised to keep that in mind. Please refrain from bad language and DO NOT get overly abusive with other members. You MUST post in English. It is OK to have fiercely intense debate. This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site. The views here do not represent the forum's views or my views in any way. It is meant as a place to debate or discuss subjects that may create heated debate. Almost no moderation will occur in this forum at all.
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Xymox
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Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:10 pm

One of the biggest problems in the world today are people who are self proclaimed experts. No formal training at all in the field. No actual experience in the field. They just research things that match what they want to believe and then quote it as "proof" no matter how obscure it may be. They also 2+2=6..

Its a feedback loop that leads to resonance around any subject they choose.

Then you have the "End of the world". There is always a segment of the population that truly believes some event/thing will end the world. They think about this to obsession.

When you combine the 2 you get a Tin Foil Hatter obsessed about the LHC ending the world. THE WORLD WILL END TODAY,,, oh wait it didn't end,,, let me come up with a new reason,,,, there NOW it will end... Oh wait that didn't work,,, ok THIS is the proof ! Oh wait... And they just go on forever. NEVER LEARNING FROM THEIR MISTAKES or doing any self assessment of their beliefs.

They also tend to like the attention that being the "ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS THE TRUTH" that preaching the end of the world brings.

If you add the whole anti-science stance of some conservative religions then you get truly cult level obsession with stopping the LHC..

Never mind that same person would allow a PET scan if it might save them from a medical condition.

This segment of the population has discussed the end of the world for hundreds of years AT LEAST.. It never happens of course. Just the same old broken record...

The real danger from them is that they can scare other less knowledgeable people. Its a serious problem that I take seriously.

Lets discuss this. How much time each day do you think about / discuss / research the end of the world ? Do you consider majority expert opinions or research just what you want to believe no matter how obscure ?

Honestly, I have had enough of "Self Proclaimed Experts".

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:23 am

Hmmm......

no response ???

Does this prove my point ? Just ignore reality ? OMG he has a opposing view so lets just ignore it ?

I also hate people who just spew unproven "facts" and thier own views without being open to other views. I am open to many things Discern has said on this forum. It is a interesting viewpoint. It causes thought. The posts are really long and I think its possible to shorten them however. I do not agree with most of the ideas however. I am willing to think about it however.. I tend to listen to -experts- and when all sorts of -experts- across many diverse fields all agree on something, I tend to think that might have validity. This is especially true on subjects where I am NOT a expert. If 99.999999% of the scientific world agrees on something, I tend to lend it favor. However I do look into it on my own as well. I have found in my 45 years of life that its VERY VERY VERY rare, if ever, that a vast majority scientific opnion is horribly wrong and this resulted in a cataclysmic result..

It does not imply it cant happen. Mathematically it could. HOWEVER, the odds that anyone on this forum being correct about physics being completely wrong is exponentially small.

So, I would like "self proclaimed experts" to consider it as a illness. This is a distinct possibility mathematically. I would like any self proclaimed expert who thinks the LHC is going to cause the apocalypse to consider this before posting. I want self proclaimed experts to consider that they may have a addiction and a serious problem.

What are the mathematical odds that you are correct ? We have the V A S T majority of EXPERTS who see the LHC as SAFE..

Why is it NO prominent physicist has come forward with a technical reason that the LHC is dangerous ? Let me guess, some form of conspiracy ? Conspiracy theories are another plague.

Is it morally or ethically correct to post what may be incorrect "facts" and scare people ?

For people who come on this forum and start preaching we are all going to die from the LHC I am going to move that post down here and then post these questions on it. I will end up with a large number of threads.

Feel free to get angry. Feel free to say ANYTHING you want. NOTHING will be deleted. For ANY reason.

I am sorry for loosing my professional demeanor, objectivity and impartially and getting flat angry about this. Self proclaimed experts are bad enough,,, but when the start preaching the end of the world,,, on my forum,,, I loose it...

So lets discuss mental health... Lets discuss if there is any possibility that maybe there might be a issue. Im up for this debate...

NOT debating it means you loose.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:28 am

I am -NOT- addressing anyone who questions the safety. Those questions are great ! We can discuss then to help address these questions.

I SERIOUSLY object to anyone who states as fact that the LHC will blow up the world. That I consider as a illness and will treat it as such...

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Shadowdraxx » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:50 am

good read tbh, and yeah i do agree personally, there are differences between concerned or scared people and those who just are as u put it stuck in some kind of OCD loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive% ... e_disorder) as an example.

And I'm glad that you take it serious, because it only takes one random journalist that knows nothing about this subject to read some of this "scary" reading and decide its scared him/her enough to "go" public as "scientist says LHC will doom us all", or something like it.

Last year on september 9th the media did this to sell more news and get people watching, and guess what happened
Chayya Lal

Age: 16
Asharita, Sarangpur, India

Suicide

September 9, 2008

She was traumatized by TV programs about the opening of the Large Hadron Collider, which talked about the end of the world coming. Her parents told her not to worry and diverted her attention to no avail. She drank a pesticide from her father's farm.
Yup some young girl couldnt cope with all the science and scary words and took her own life, and we all have a responsibily NOT to allow that to happen in the future.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:34 am

.......................

So.. People have DIED...

Not to mention all the fear and needless worrying these people have caused spewing froth complete BS...

THIS HAS CAUSED DEATH...

Yea ok..... im even more upset and intolerant...

Im going to take on these people. The BS must stop....

Im making this post a "sticky" so it always stays at the top.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by CharmQuark » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:46 am

I have to say something here cause it's the only place i won't feel stupid,

I have to admit when i first heard about the LHC the first words i seen was THE END OF THE WORLD now i am one of these people that gets scared easy, i am not saying i believe it but sometimes when it's all over the paper's you kinda get thinking

Anyways over the past year or so i have been doing my own reading and stuff on what it's all about, and i am now happy to sit back and watch what these wonderful people are gonna come up with.
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:28 am

See I love questions and fears like that. Your willing to listen and are questioning what is going on !... NOOOOO problem AT ALL with that... I love it... Very reasonable..

The Media makes money when you read/watch them. News, Entertainment and money get all blured together today in some media outlets today.. So sensational news makes them money. They really dont care if its true. What better then a machine that "COULD END THE WORLD" !! If they can find some obscure guy who has not had any of his facts checked by a independent review and he has a "paper" that proves the end of the world,,, they run the story because it makes them money.

As I am sure you have already discovered in your reading and research EVERYBODY who is a expert in this stuff ALL says the LHC is perfectly safe.

The LHC ending the world is all hearsay, rumor and profiteering on the part of media propagated by Self Appointed Experts in physics. That is REALLY THE TRUTH..

I think all major news outlets have even figured out that the LHC is perfectly safe.. I think this was because they realized that speading false rumor and unsubstantiated facts CAN CAUSE MASS PANIC and result in someone dying... Its immoral and unethical..

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:40 am

Now do NOT get me wrong... I have very healthy concern.. If/When we exceed cosmic ray energies I think we need to seriously consider what we are doing. However, we are 10-20 years away from that... If we can EVER reach those levels... Right now we dont even come close to the cosmic ray collision energies that hit our planet all the time. In fact,,, these are NATURAL.

Nothing to worry about now...
10-20 years from now, yes,,, I think we need to be seriously careful..

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Re: Mental illness

Post by CharmQuark » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:47 am

Thank for not thinking i am some sorta fruit loop lol :lol:

Yes i have to agree the papers will do anything to sell, it's human nature to be scared, and they do play on it alot, but like i have said, i now know more about CERN and the LHC than i thought i would ever know about anything, just these people with the END OF THE WORLD obession needs to seriously think what they are doing and saying, because there are people out that take it even more serious than me, but then again most people like you have said don't do the research and find out what is really going on,

I am really pleased i found this site, big thumbs to it :D
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Xymox » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:08 am

See your like everybody pretty much... A year ago the media scared lots of people. Then everybody went and did thier own research and figured out its safe..

So this year there was no panic when the LHC started up. Everybody did what any reasonable and sane person would do, they went and researched it the year before after the first panic. They quickly discovered it was not dangerous.

Considering the stupid news stories a year ago it is perfectly normal to be worried. Not to mention the movies and all sorts of crazy internet stuff on the LHC ending the world. Its ok to be concerned. But research will quickly resolve these fears now.

What I am SERIOUSLY UPSET WITH are people who continue to preach that the LHC is going to end the world... Causing people like you Emmylou to be scared for no reason. They crave attention and have real illnesses. OCD and worse. Its DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR. It needs to stop. It sure wont get anywhere on my forum. I will combat it.

I think I will also limit the number of words someone can put in a posting. I HATE long posts..

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Re: Mental illness

Post by CharmQuark » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:17 am

thank you for litening to me xymox and thanks for the reasurance :D

i shall no doubt be having my say again very soon :roll:

Emmylou
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by foofighter » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:16 am

Hi guys,
I was the same I got really worried when I first heard about this thing, to the point that I was glad when it was shut down last year.
See the reason I got annoyed yesterday with Ivan was that it was because of people like him and Walter I was worried all through September last year. All the websites I looked at seemed to be saying we was going to die.

When I heard they was starting it back up I got worried again and started searching for info about it all over the web. To my relief I found people like Rpenner who proved there was nothing to worry about.

As for Ivan, if he really believed that the LHC was going to end the world why is he spending all of his last days just repeating what he has said for the last year, surely by now it is too late to stop it and he should just enjoy his time left before the end. ( this would not include spending all your last few hours ranting and raving on the web, I would be seeing my family and friends etc. ) So I think he is just a scaremongering idiot that should be ignored!

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Shadowdraxx » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:24 am

Hi Emmylou,

There are many people like you and me that were scared from the media's rather sensationalist views, its a shame i personally had to devote alot of time and effort to start to melt the fears they put into me away.

You are not alone here, and this time around i think the media are much more aware of what they write, they are just copy pasting things rather than making more sensationalist views.

Really it comes down to about 6 people that I'm aware of that go through the internet and media to make these claims, which ill post below as i know some of us hate mega posts without a break :).

.....

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Shadowdraxx » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:27 am

OK, so the people, involved with stating publically the "risk of death from the LHC" so to speak:


Walter L Wagner -perfect example here watch the daily show for how realible his work is, also the sites below will fill you in on how he works (note if u were REALLY concerned about the LHC whats the motivation for being shot down on the daily show???).

http://shouldersofgiantmidgets.blogspot ... n-man.html
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-a ... n-collider
http://onscreen-scientist.com/?tag=otto-rossler

Luis Sancho - Sci-Fi writer that spams all sorts of scary OMG CERN ARE EVIL kinda stuff, has no backgroung nor knowledge in any part of physics, here is a qoute
from the stuff he writes in comments to news articles..
A Damocles sword has been hung on the future of mankind. CERN misinforms mankind.
Also Co Plaintiff (with Wagner) in the main Anti LHC lawsuit which can be followed here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=85716

The Docket filed to the Court:

http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court- ... _id-78717/


Otto Rossler - Ahhh a real working scientist, here is some sanity right? erm well apart from working outside his normal field, he also appears to have written his on theories on the way nature could work, again best explained on this site: (note not being a physicist I cant explain why he is wrong and i would be wrong to do so, I can only point people to resources where physicist working in the right fields show his inconsistancies).

http://onscreen-scientist.com/?tag=otto-rossler

Orginal paper he made, and a counter paper to thhat showing errors:

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html (towards the bottom).

JTankers - Not sure who this is however he is a important back bone to the anti LHC crew, making websites and forums and then firing semi science (i.e science u could get away with in star trek but not reality) no real evidance of background work on the subject seems to look upto MR Wagner (note bold for not Dr as Jtankers calls him), I'm not sure what his real motivation is, but I'd say he is someone thats very worried but cannot get past this initial fear.

Dr. Rainer Plaga Another late entry into the Anti LHC aspects, i dont want to have a go here really because i feel he made a paper to open talk and dicussion rather than fear mongering, his paper was then shown to be incorrect, and he seems to be accepting of this like any good scientist will, a further example recently he has not continued to discuss the matter in a scary "OMG WERE GOING TO DIE" way, like the other (note including Rossler who at one point had published in the media to put the LHC on the moon, like thats going to save us from a black hole etc etc).

Again some history on him is below:

http://onscreen-scientist.com/?tag=otto-rossler

And the paper he posted, and a then reviewed and show to be in error:

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/Safety-en.html (towards the bottom)

Ivan Gorelik (Dr. Dark) - mmm I'm not going to say much here other than even the anti LHC crew wont touch his work, and his current course of action is only going to end in a bad way for him, however to represent him offically check his site below:

http://darkenergy.narod.ru/drdark.html

So although there are many physicists that have come up with arguements/counterarguements etc etc to discuss all possible outcomes, all of them every single one are united to state pretty much all models and calculations show we are not at risk from death from the LHC.

And ill end this epic post with this:

All the Anti LHC guys are willing to accept a mathimatical theory that there are more dimensions to our universe (which if was true would be one of the biggest discoveries since fire), yet are not willing to accept the other aspect of this theory that hawking radiation makes black holes irradicate themselves, the two go hand in hand the maths and theory have both, not one or the other.

So they really are being selective to what to tell you, in order to scare and change your stance to allign yourself to their cause as a saviour of the planet.

Peace Out

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Re: Mental illness

Post by nutcracker » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:35 am

Shadowdraxx wrote:Hi Emmylou,

There are many people like you and me that were scared from the media's rather sensationalist views, its a shame i personally had to devote alot of time and effort to start to melt the fears they put into me away.

You are not alone here, and this time around i think the media are much more aware of what they write, they are just copy pasting things rather than making more sensationalist views.

Really it comes down to about 6 people that I'm aware of that go through the internet and media to make these claims, which ill post below as i know some of us hate mega posts without a break :).

.....
I give the following probabilities:
A. 99 % that you are Robbie DG
B. 0.5 % that you are not
C. 0.5 % I leave to my mistake :lol: :lol: :lol:
I can smell your fear from here man :)
Once more a free piece of advice on fear management: CONFRONT it Robbie. That means: you have to accept a certain margin of insecurity. You cannot know 100% for sure, that nothing will go wrong at the LHC. That's life. Try to live it. Concentrate on yourself, not on others.

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