Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

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Shadowdraxx
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Shadowdraxx » Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:19 pm

views are not the same as "go bomb cern" tbh

And having him around like a little forum pet isnt exactly fair either.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:52 pm

Well..... Bombing CERN is a bad thing to say I agree. However he has said it on his web site and has said it in other places. Its quoted in a Register Story.

It makes him look even more crazy...

Where in his posts is he saying bomb cern ? I cant find it..

I agree, thats illegal. So yes illegal things are against the rules. Being fair I did not explain that before. So if Ivan said that, it needs to be removed from his post.

Ivan, if you said in one of your posts to bomb CERN please edit your post to remove it or I will.
And having him around like a little forum pet isnt exactly fair either.
I like pets !. He very clearly demonstrates where these end of the world theorists come from and clearly shows how this mind set works.

Again.... I am very serious about freedom of expression. I am very very serious about not going back on my word. Just because someone has a very different opinion about something is not grounds at all to restrict their rights to freedom of expression.. I am not going to change the rules after making a agreement.

So while he is very opinionated I feel strongly he has a right to post.

I understand that from his point of view he needs to intercede in any way he can to save the world. From his standpoint its life and death. So his posts may be very serious in wording. Think about his perspective.

Threatening CERN with violence is breaking the rules. I agree this needs to be addressed..

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by MagneticTrap » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:14 pm

ORION111 wrote:Would you like to explain this to me.

Haven't we done collisions at 1,960 GeV for the past nine years. Then why would you need a 100 GeV upper limit when the LHC comes online?
Yes. 1,980 GeV collisions (per two particles) were already done at Tevatron.
But I fear magnetic hole. It can be created in collisions of charged particles with the same sign.
Tevatron: proton-antiproton collisions, B=0.
LHC: proton-proton collisions: B=2B1.
Look at the figure and say, how strong is magnetic induction in the center between colliding particles, if 1) colliding particles are protons; 2) colliding particles are pronto and antiproton.

Image

ORION111 wrote:...why would you need a 100 GeV upper limit when the LHC comes online?
If magnetic moment of x-boson is equal to magnetic moment of proton, then magnetic hole can e created in p-p collisions with 250 GeV energy.

That follows from two independent mathematical proves.

Equation pФ/S = mc^2 becomes valid under 250 GeV.

Can you say, what will happen, if the magnetic hole would be created?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by MagneticTrap » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:31 pm

Xymox wrote:Ivan, if you said in one of your posts to bomb CERN please edit your post to remove it or I will.
No, no, dear Xymox. But can I upload a picture.
Do not remove it. It is fine.

**********************************************************
( EDIT BY XYMOX ) Ivan... I got too many complaints about your picture and had to remove it
**********************************************************

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:34 pm

( edit )
Hahaha.... we were posting at the same time..

Ivan, Thats pretty funny... At least i think so..

If someone complains then I might have to ask you to remove it. It is a bit over the edge.
Threatening someone or some place with bombing them is breaking the rules..
I assume you are joking ?


I asked this a long time ago and never got a response.

Ivan, what are the odds of a single p-p 3.5TeV collision will destroy the world ?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Stephen » Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:45 pm

And more importantly - what calculation do you use to reach this probability?

Also, what do you have to say about that?
Some trivial things wrong with Gorelik's model:
1) He works in 2 dimensions instead of 3
2) He places the monopole at the center of the Earth, which is not where LHC is located.
3) He does not say how he "turns on gravity" in his model, but he probably hasn't mastered Newtonian gravity to give the correct interpretation -- but then this too requires that he operate in 3-dimensions
4) Units aren't arbitrary -- when he says arbitrary units for gravity, he is failing to understand his own work.
5) He abandons any justification for this model in that retracts his claim of studying the monopole and now claims that everyone else really meant magnetic dipole.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by MagneticTrap » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:04 pm

Xymox wrote:Ivan, what are the odds of a single p-p 3.5TeV collision will destroy the world ?
I do not know.
But if it is 1 / 1 000 000 000 we will have it quite soon, pehaps in the first quarter of this year.

In a 1000 seconds/days after that, we will start into outer space and in a year we will overtake Voyagers. Most of us will die almost at once. But it is possible that some seamen in submarine will be able to observe universe through the thickness of a freezing foam comet.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:18 pm

How can you not know this and still predict odds ?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by MagneticTrap » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:46 pm

Stephen wrote: Also, what do you have to say about that?
Some trivial things wrong with Gorelik's model:
1) He works in 2 dimensions instead of 3
2) He places the monopole at the center of the Earth, which is not where LHC is located.
3) He does not say how he "turns on gravity" in his model, but he probably hasn't mastered Newtonian gravity to give the correct interpretation -- but then this too requires that he operate in 3-dimensions
4) Units aren't arbitrary -- when he says arbitrary units for gravity, he is failing to understand his own work.
5) He abandons any justification for this model in that retracts his claim of studying the monopole and now claims that everyone else really meant magnetic dipole.
O that is a quote from the thread
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27111
which I did not entered, yet.

That notes are connected to one item from my topic “Crude errors of CERN”.

Before to answer on notes, I’ll repeat the essence of item.
1. Let the length of free path of a particle is equal to 1 meter, r = 1 m.
Let the radius of the object is equal to 1000 meters, R = 1000 m.
How many collisions will undergo the particle in order to exit the object?

Solution. R/r = 1000. N = (R/r)^2 = 1 000 000.

2. How many Earth’s protons will be ruined by dangerous particle, if R/r = 10^9?

A. CERN’s solution: N = (R/r)^2 = 10^18.
B. My solution: The Earth has its own gravity field. Consequently, the trajectory of a particle between collisions will not be straight line, but curved to the center of attraction. As a result the dangerous particle will constantly drift to the center of the Earth. As a result the dangerous particle will ruin about N/n Earth’s protons, where: N – the total number of Earth’s protons; n – the number of created dangerous particles.
Because even this simple problem was hard to understand I make a program and wrote (Dec 27, 2009) the following:
Yesterday I made a program and refreshed my page "Crude Errors in Risk Assessment of Colliders" http://darkenergy.narod.ru/tezeng.html

Here is a part from it:
----------------------------
The second crude error is made by the authors of http://doc.cern.ch/yellowrep/2003/2003-001/p1.pdf They wrote
...magnetic monopoles can catalyze proton decay. Can this be a problem?
At each catalysis event energy is released by the decaying proton, causing the monopole to move. It is straightforward to estimate the number of protons that could be destroyed before the monopole escapes the Earth. Monopoles are expected to have a strong cross-section with normal matter. As a result the mean free path of a monopole moving through iron is given by (formula)..
In each collision a nucleon is destroyed so the escaping monopole will destroy 10^18 nucleons: negligibly small compared to the total number of nucleons.
The author’s logic would be correct only in the case of isotropic medium. But the Earth has it’s own gravity field and it’s own magnetic field. Both these fields are not isotropic. Created monopoles will not go far from the attracting places. They will randomly move around these places till destroy all protons of the Earth. So the correct number is not 10^18 but 10^51, divided by the number of created monopoles.

Let's make a computer model. In order to see the point of particle's exit we'll make two-dimensional model. Three-dimensional model gives analogues result. Let the length of free path of dangerous particle will be 10^2 times smaller the radius of the Earth model. Then, in the absence of gravity field, according to theory it must collide and ruin (10^2)^2 = 10000 particles. Testing the program four times, we can receive the following figures.

http://darkenergy.narod.ru/er.gif

The dangerous particle ruined correspondingly 11584, 6688, 11308, 18644 protons. These numbers do not differ greatly from the number given by statistical theory.

Let's begin to switch on the gravity by steps in conventional units: 0.01; 0.02; 0.04; 0.08.

http://darkenergy.narod.ru/er1.gif

The correspondent numbers of ruined protons are 55 603; 101 161; 189 545; 10 000 000. In the last case the dangerous particle did not leave the model, but the program was stitched out at the number 10 000 000.

At the further growth of gravity field to the values 0.2; 0.4 we can see that the particle makes the same 10 000 000 collisions, but paints the smaller regions near the center of the model.

Image

Consequently, the strongly interacting dangerous particle will not leave the Earth until it will ruin almost the whole Earth's matter. Of course, the time, needed to utter destruction of Earth is extremely huge, but if we take into account the next error of CERN's physicists, this time would be diminished to about 1000 seconds.
And now let’s go to notes.
Some trivial things wrong with Gorelik's model:
1) He works in 2 dimensions instead of 3
I tested that statistical problem at 1, 2, 3 dimensions. Results the same. I uploaded pictures made for 2-dimensional space in order that you can see the point of particles exit from the object. Two dimensional program is uploaded at my web-site. You can try it http://darkenergy.narod.ru/dranken.exe

2) He places the monopole at the center of the Earth, which is not where LHC is located.
As for “the center”. That is the statistical problem. CERN’s authors also make the same, but they made a crude error.
3) He does not say how he "turns on gravity" in his model, but he probably hasn't mastered Newtonian gravity to give the correct interpretation -- but then this too requires that he operate in 3-dimensions
4) Units aren't arbitrary -- when he says arbitrary units for gravity, he is failing to understand his own work.
5) He abandons any justification for this model in that retracts his claim of studying the monopole and now claims that everyone else really meant magnetic dipole.
Childish speech. That is simple problem. I solved that problem intuitively. The compute program was made not long ago (Dec 27, 2009) in order you see the pictures, in order you try yourself to change values to see the result.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Anitusar » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:26 pm

MagneticTrap wrote: At the end of the article the author try to calm the readers that LHC will collide protons with the energy only about 450 GeV.

But the calculation (two independent approaches) gives us the value about 250 GeV.

...

The 250 GeV energy per colliding proton was already achieved at RHIC. Experimentalists could see collapses – fireballs – about four years ago. It is possible that those fireballs are experimental proves of magnetic holes. Those holes evaporated immediately because the RHIC collided heavy nuclei, containing many protons and neutrons. Will such holes evaporate at LHC, or will created magnetic holes begin to capture the slowly moving protons of Earth?

...

People, please, stop powerful colliders immediately.
Collisions with energy, more that 100 GeV must be banned by international law.
You do know, that at DESY they collided positron and protons with 320GeV for quite some time. Nothing happened, how come?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Allan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm

As we used to say in the Air Force about people of Ivan's type, sharp as the leading edge of a bowling ball with a head of equal density. :mrgreen:

Allan :angry-screaming:

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Stephen » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:41 am

Ivan, maybe I wasn't asking clearly enough. How did you calculate the probability of a magnetic collapse?
Last edited by Stephen on Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:13 am

Orion..

A new user is going to read the thread from the beginning. Most likely..

If you have not read it from the beginning in a while its worth rereading. I think it actually helps people get over the fear that the LHC is going cause harm.

I am visiting my family right now. I did a test. I had my mom read the thread. After a bit she gave up and was sure that the LHC was not going to cause a magnetic trap of the devil. She asked some key questions. 1) Why has he never provided proof ? 2) why does he not want to publish his new science ? Her conclusions were that he was obviously incorrect.

I think its ok. I think people can come to their own conclusions..

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by CharmQuark » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:28 am

Can't agrue with :ugeek:
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by DCWhitworth » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:22 am

emmylou wrote:Can't agrue with :ugeek:
I *never* argue with Chris ;)
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