Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

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chelle
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:39 pm

Mailo wrote:The atoms themselves are just fine, they just moved out of the area visible in the experiment. Moving 10^4 atoms 20cm to the side does not require very much energy. Nuclear fission has nothing to do whatsoever with it.
Most of the atoms can very well be just fine, but what I want to know is how far did the outgoing particles fly, do they take energy away from the area, and do they have a separate kinetic energy value, or is all energy release included in the 100nK energy shift? If you look at the image below you'll see that there is a lot of matter flying and moving around.

Image

Many of the atoms in the BEC flew outward, some in spherical shells, others in narrow jets. Some of the ejecta completely disappeared -- a lingering mystery. Some remained as a smaller core at the position of the original condensate.
To an astrophysicist, this sounds remarkably like a supernova explosion. Indeed, Wieman et al dubbed it a "Bosenova". In fact, the explosion liberated only enough energy to raise the temperature of the condensate 200 billionths of a degree.

source: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc ... tronstars/

They are only referring tho the temperature of the condensate, not mentioning energies of scattered particles. And also check this site, regarding what is flying around and coming out of the event:
http://physics.aps.org/viewpoint-for/10 ... 101.080401
The evolution is characterized by an isotropic implosion of the BEC, which is ultimately slowed down by three-body losses. The collapsing gas consists of three components: a remnant condensate that consists of multiple solitons, a burst of energetic atoms that are ejected from the condensate, and a certain fraction of atoms that escape due to energy losses in three-body collisions.
...
Because of the anisotropy of the dipolar interaction, the BEC may start to explode radially while it is still imploding axially.

Remember:
Image

And on a site note if I may let go my fantasy run wild for a second, I would like to ad a final sketch with scribbles, that should illustrate the following:

If during the ongoing event of high-energy-particle-collisions, shock-waves would originate with energizing (cooling) phonons that polarise the area, generating Atom-colonies who are on the brink of becoming BEC. Than at some point in time those spots can convert into BEC, and when hit by an incoming particle they will disperse and set of a chain-reaction. These BEC-colonies wouldn't be noticed by the detectors because they don't move and don't emit energy, detectors only observe energy emission. BEC-spots wouldn't even generate a cold flow, because room's temperature is mainly dependent on molecular dynamics.

Image

And even more wilder; what if those ultra-high-energy cosmic rays mentioned earlier are Giant-BEC-atoms, once hit they explode, and they could easily originate from supernova's, that cause stars to break into pieces. I'm bringing this up because the core of the sun could be made up out of BEC, or simply put, very closely stacked cooled atoms, even our planets core might be like that. Remember in the Super-Kamiokande detector in Japan where half of the upcoming muon neutrinos that should be flying through the earth coming from the other side were not present.

This concept would be logic as the more you go downwards in a rotating sphere, the less rotation/movement there is and thus the colder it is. When BEC surfaces the more it can freely move, and starts to explode, hey that would make the sun shines. On our planet this mechanism would produce the energy for volcanos and magma. Once BEC pop's open it can become fermions ore bosons, al kinds of new compositions depending on environmental pressure.

And "the heart" of a post-supernova cloud would be at the darkest place and thus the coldest spot, and thus the place to form a BEC, the most coldest and compact matter in the universe, almost close to 0k and 2nd to none.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:03 am

Chelle:
Which one of the ladies are you referring to
All of them... I think... Well mostly.. I would need to check each one really.

Kasuha: Nice headpalm..

Chelle:

Wow.....

I like the illustrations..

"Atom-colonies" Wow...

The drawing is awesome.. Looks like a napkin or maybe photoshop... Either way impressive way to illustrate your point. Quite stylish...

So again, you do understand that the LHCb event display pic you are linking to was showing erroneous data right ? They are still working on it and talk about it in logs.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:11 pm

Xymox wrote:Chelle: Wow..... I like the illustrations.. "Atom-colonies"
The drawing is awesome.. Looks like a napkin or maybe photoshop... Either way impressive way to illustrate your point. Quite stylish...
Hey thx for the compliments, technically it's just a pencil drawing in a sketchbook, scanned and colored in photoshop, goes quite fast that way ... perhaps you could ad a SF and sketches section to the forum ^_^
Xymox wrote:So again, you do understand that the LHCb event display pic you are linking to was showing erroneous data right ? They are still working on it and talk about it in logs.
Good you bring this up again 'cause I was questioning this already earlier but didn't get a reply:
Chelle wrote:
Xymox wrote:The LHCb had issues with its tracking recently. So those tracks are not real..
Do you mean the issues discussed here, after you posted these graphs, and on which I'm commenting, or are you referring to something else? - link
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:52 pm

Chelle wrote:Hey thx for the compliments, technically it's just a pencil drawing in a sketchbook, scanned and colored in photoshop, goes quite fast that way ... perhaps you could ad a SF and sketches section to the forum ^_^
Reminds me of our elections campaign going on just now, politicans are also coloring themselves pretty (kind of) and some people believe them because of that.
Chelle wrote:Good you bring this up again 'cause I was questioning this already earlier but didn't get a reply:
That was the reply. I guess Xymox's evil plan backfired a bit... :lol:

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:04 pm

Kasuha wrote:Reminds me of our elections campaign going on just now, politicans are also coloring themselves pretty (kind of) and some people believe them because of that.
--
That was the reply. I guess Xymox's evil plan backfired a bit ...
Replies like this make me wonder who's actually paranoid. Anyway, I would find it interesting if you commented on the content of what I posted previously, because I think there is some sense in it, like it or not.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:39 pm

Chelle wrote:Anyway, I would find it interesting if you commented on the content of what I posted previously, because I think there is some sense in it, like it or not.
Sorry but I'm not going to read your current theories so what I write now is based on what I read in your posts before my last previous comment. All of it was based on repeating of the same false assumptions over and over again, ignoring any arguments pointing out how much invalid they are. It's not fun anymore so I don't feel like I should spend my energy on explaining something to somebody who's not going to even try to understand.
If your new theories are any more valid than the previous ones, I believe someone else not so bored by that is going to point that out.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Mailo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:07 pm

Yep, same here, I'm tired of fighting against windmills. And no, the new theories are not any more valid, as they are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "bosenova" or a BEC is. In addition, the LHCb picture that keeps croping up is not worth the pixels used to display it, the weird lines are based on a software bug ONLY. Even if something weird had happened, lines such as the ones shown could never be calculated by a correctly working algorithm (they would need information that simply does not exist, such as what's happening in the concrete walls of the hall).
If I claimed there was a possibility that the particle collisions opened up a micro worm hole through which a huge fleet of warships from aliens from Beta Centauri came through, and called by the tachyons of said wormhole a similar fleet of warships of the mortal enemies of Beta Centauri (Gamma Centauri) would swoop down from the sky to do battle above Lake Geneva, where due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog. ... it would have pretty much equal likelihood of being true. Props to the one catching the quote :D

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:45 pm

Kasuha wrote:All of it was based on repeating of the same false assumptions over and over again, ignoring any arguments pointing out how much invalid they are.
I didn't ignore your arguments, they were just no good, I disproved them almost every time.
Mailo wrote:The new theories are not any more valid, as they are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a "bosenova" or a BEC is.
Provide me a better reference of bosenova's than the ones I gave, with the energy numbers of the particles that are sprayed out, and we'll know if I misunderstood.
Mailo wrote:The LHCb picture that keeps croping up is not worth the pixels used to display it, the weird lines are based on a software bug ONLY. Even if something weird had happened, lines such as the ones shown could never be calculated by a correctly working algorithm (they would need information that simply does not exist, such as what's happening in the concrete walls of the hall).
Something has triggered the software to come up with this. Indeed it could be nothing, but what if a particle starts to fly in an unexpected direction or way, for which the software isn't designed to calculate, than the result would be ... ?
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by tswsl1989 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Chelle wrote:Something has triggered the software to come up with this. Indeed it could be nothing, but what if a particle starts to fly in an unexpected direction or way, for which the software isn't designed to calculate, than the result would be ... ?
Either a best approximation of "normal" behaviour, and/or an error would be flagged by the software doing the interpolation. Keep in mind that the pictures we see are the smallest percentage of the data captured for that event. The experts have more data that they can interpret to find out more about what's going on.
Personally, I suspect the "something" that triggered the software to come up with that image will be a mistake in the code that generates the image. Try writing something to fit curves to data and then test it. It's quite amusing what can be generated by very small perturbations in your data, or the slightest mistake in your forumlae/code

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:36 pm

tswsl1989 wrote:Try writing something to fit curves to data and then test it. It's quite amusing what can be generated by very small perturbations in your data, or the slightest mistake in your forumlae/code
I don't understand why they keep on working with vectors, they are no good when things become complicated. A lot of the old 3D animations where nurbs based but it's all shifted towards polygons, because it's so hard to handle and unreliable. You know I've been trying to get a few simple animations going and vectors give me one bug after the other when coordinates flip over, some simply things aren't doable with vectors (alone). Check it out, I know it's a bit stupid and simplistic but you might have a rough idea of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJqVhvTWqUM

I think that a "Game Of Life" type of algorithm, or something like Reynolds' flock would be far more interesting to study particle behavior, especially if you want to include a medium in which they prolongate. It would also give a more realistic idea of how a higgs-field would work, or any other lattice where in magnons and phonons move, which seems to be neglected or ignored.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:54 pm

Chelle wrote:but what if a particle starts to fly in an unexpected direction or way, for which the software isn't designed to calculate, than the result would be ... ?
Then the result would be that the software wouldn't draw any line between the points.
As an excercise I recommend you to find out why.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by tswsl1989 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:01 pm

Chelle wrote:I don't understand why they keep on working with vectors, they are no good when things become complicated.
Possibly because particles have a velocity (A speed and a direction) at every point at which they're measured? Velocity being a vector quantity. Vectors see heavy usage in particle physics in general.

NURBS are a nice way of drawing curves, vectors reflect the physics behind the data. If it were me writing that software, I'd probably use vectors-type mathematical methods to draw the lines.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:54 pm

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:but what if a particle starts to fly in an unexpected direction or way, for which the software isn't designed to calculate, than the result would be ... ?
Then the result would be that the software wouldn't draw any line between the points.
As an excercise I recommend you to find out why.
As always because Mr. Know-It-All said so.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Shadowdraxx » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:03 pm

why is this in Ivan's thread, talk about derailed

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by CharmQuark » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:21 pm

No Kidding :roll:
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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